Hey there,

I've been working on something and wondering if I can get some insight before approaching my GM.

Basically, I'm playing a melee-focused character that specializes in blades (see if you can guess what organization they're a part of!), but who has no interest into branching into power weapons - from a personal perspective, both IC and OOC, they simply don't fit the character's style (way too much lightning). Another player recently joined the group however, a psyker, and they've chosen to take up the role of the Templar; which, given they now have a force weapon (which they were basically handed with very little trouble in locating/building) effectively makes my character obsolete - the psyker can out-sword me, out-sneak me, out-shine me in pretty much every way, AND he's a powerful psyker to boot.

I want to at least stay vaguely competitive (ie, I want to stay useful as something more than a throw-away within the party), but I don't want to betray my character's style by taking up a power weapon (IC concern) for the sake of not falling into the role of meat-shield/burden-to-team (OOC concern).

As an alternative, I've been considering pitching a vibro-cell - that is, some sort of trinket/device (hopefully one which can be moved from weapon to weapon; possibly requiring some sort of ritualistic preparatory treatment/technical alteration to accommodate), viewed as a mystical heirloom from ages past, which causes a weapon's bladed edge to vibrate rapidly (a technology which is present in the 40k Universe, although not detailed in any in-game material that I could find). This vibration in turn results in the blade emitting a faint metallic humming sound, an increase in damage (+2), an increase in penetration (+3), and the application of the Razor Sharp trait (Pen x2 when Weapon Skill attack roll gets 2+ DoS).

Effectively, combined with the Lathe-blade Upgrade (from IH: Forge Worlds), this would bring a normal sword to 1d10+4 damage (slightly less than a power sword) and Pen 6 (equal to a power sword); as well as gaining the Razor Sharp trait (but not the Power Field trait).

My questions:

1. What would be a viable price for something like this?

Given that a base-line Power Sword is 2,500 thrones and the Lathe-upgrade is also 2,500 thrones, I was thinking somewhere between 1,500 - 3,000 thrones for the vibro-cell itself.

2. What are some negative traits that I could associate with this item's use?

A normal power sword draws a lot of attention, requires a Proficiency talent to use properly, and can cause an enemy's weapon to be destroyed (good or bad, depending on the circumstances).

For the vibro-cell, I was considering requiring an Exotic Weapon talent to use properly, the application of a -10 to Parry while activated and/or some sort of Perception-based penalty (say, if the crackling lightning of a power sword offers a +20 to Perception-based tests, then a +10 due to the hum caused by this item's activation). Also for consideration, some sort of mechanic similar to a weapons jam - say, on a roll of 96-100, the item cannot be used until repaired (requiring a Tech-Use or Weapon Skill test of some sort).

3. Am I totally out of line in asking for such a thing from my GM?

I have a lot of issues with anxiety, and I feel kind of weird approaching my GM with an issue like this; but the fact that my character - who used to be the go-to guy for melee combat in the party - has very little use now, outside of being 'that guy we send into a room we're pretty sure is trapped/filled with tyranids', really irks me. It irks me even more that the GM is treating the psyker getting easy access to a force weapon (not to mention the Templar organization) with so little concern, yet is very strict with other members of the group in terms of what they can access.

I'm going to try to explain this to my GM, as well as the fact that the item I'd like to pitch - while certainly not alleviating all of my concerns - would greatly alleviate my sense of 'being bloody useless', while simultaneously providing a bit of flavor to my character. I'd like to know what others think though, as outside perspective is always nice to have when you're thinking about something like this.

Any suggestions/input would be appreciated. Thanks!

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me as an item. The only thing I would question is the razor sharp quality. With that much pen you are slicing through power armour. This is fine as long as it doesn't happen all the time. At your level I would have thought 2 DoS happens a lot of the time.

As for speaking to your GM I would just say it straight, playing someone who is just used as a meatshield is not fun. An item may not be his preferred option to solve the problem but until you point out there is one he isn't going to change anything whilst he doesn't see it. Perhaps though after your psyker backlashes when trying to sneak up on someone the party might use you instead…

BrotherKane said:

Thanks for the response.

As for the razor sharp (RS) quality, I have to agree upon further thought.
With a WS in the mid-50's (in theory, mid 60's with a BQ weapon), I can't say that I personally get many 2+ DoS on normal attacks - probably just bad luck on my part.

Looking at the numbers though, things that give a bonus to WS rolls (Aiming, Charging, certain talents, etc) may well increase the RS chance to a bit too often; though, Aiming/Charging also limit the number of attacks one can use in a round, which may be a nice offset (ie, one attack with a very good chance of RS, or several attacks with much lower chance).
Ex.
Normal/Multiple Attacks: WS 60, 2+ DoS = 40% chance of RS, multiple strikes
Normal Attack w/ Aim: : WS 70, 2+ DoS = 50% chance of RS, one strike
Charge Attack w/ Berserk Charge: WS 80, 2+ DoS = 60% chance of RS, one strike

I'm not really sure what kind of rate would be reasonable. That being the case, what would be some thoughts on how to dial it back?

My ideas thus far…
A) increase the required number of DoS to activate RS (4+ seems to provide a reasonable rate)
Normal/Multiple Attacks: WS 60; 3+ DoS = 30%, 4+ DoS = 20%, 5+ DoS = 10%
Normal Attack w/ Aim: : WS 70; 3+ DoS = 40%, 4+ DoS = 30%, 5+ DoS = 20%
Charge Attack w/ Berserk Charge: WS 80; 3+ DoS = 50%, 4+ DoS = 40%, 5+ DoS = 30%
… or …
B) set the RS activation rate at a static %, like the Power Field's static 75% rate of item destruction on a parry (ie, 25% chance of RS = activation on WS roll of 1-25)
… or …
C) limit the number of times it can be activated in a given period of time (still thinking over how to implement this one)

I would probably go with a static percentage chance to get the razor sharp pen bonus. The actual number is something I would discuss with your GM but 20% springs to mind as a reasonable number for me. Since people rarely worry about power cells for power weapons, chainswords etc. I would not bother with the hassle of limiting this in that way.

If you are going to look for a new version to be equal somewhat to a power field, then you should start listing and looking at different weapons. Xenos Weapons (Eldar, etc.), Powerblade Variants (Storm from BC? Fire from RT), Alt Power Fields (Fractal Blade from RT) and then items/upgrades that make it better in certain ways (Lathe as you mentioned (BQ, +1/+1 Damage/Pen over plain BQ/Mono, unbreakable almost), Sanctified (Can power weapons be sanctified?), Tox Dispenser (from RT)) and then outliers, like the shocking officer's cutlass.

Thanks for the response. Not entirely sure what you're getting at here though.

Xenos weapons would be iffy to find/use and I was unable to determine what you were referencing with the Storm/Fire variants; but, the Fractal Blade is something that I'm already familiar with (but its sorta like the xenos stuff), as are shocking weapons (which lean more towards the issue with power fields).

I've checked out every game book available I think (excluding adventures), but have yet to find anything in our permitted material that really fits the role I'm looking for, that maintains the focus on the blade of the weapon being the force of destruction and not some energy around it- though, our group is quite limited in what material we're allowed to draw from (a homebrew item may stand a better chance). Remember, the purpose of this item is to create a weapon that - when combined with other upgrades - can stand up to a power field, but which does not betray the ideological mind-set of this character (which is anti-power weapons).

Vibro-tech stuff (which I've heard is described in some of the 40k novels) seems like a cool alternative to the energy-sword route, but I would love to hear some other alternatives if available.

To answer your question, Cymbel, yes, power weapons can be sanctified; the upgrade can be applied to any melee weapon, as long as it is of Good or Best craftsmanship. You can't sanctify ranged weapons, but you can sanctify their ammunition.

As for drxn, I'm afraid you're out of luck. Regular blades are fairly mundane and low-powered in this setting, which I believe is one of the primary shortcomings of the Moritat. I have a Moritat character that I've been playing for several months now (in the same party as Cymbel) and I've come to regret my decision. Once chainswords and power swords become available, the Moritat loses their one advantage they have over their fellows, and suffer the loss of 300 XP and a crippling drawback as part of the bargain. Moritat are only good for low-level melee specialists, and even then they can be outdone by a Guardsman with a blunt weapon, since Guardsmen get cheaper Strength upgrades than Assassins do. So I'm going to turn renegade and buy a sniper rifle like a proper assassin should.

If I were you, drxn, I'd abandon the Moritat, sell your blade, and get an autocannon with a scope instead. Much more powerful, can kill someone from a kilometer away, and can fire full-auto as well. It's also half the price of a power weapon. If you insist on sticking to blades, you're on to a loser.

I meant looking at the Xeno Weapons for ideas on how to implement a powerfield substitute (statwise). Storm Power Fields are an upgrade in Black Crusade and in "Into the Storm" there is a power weapon design that was made with a malfunctioning field, which heated up and caused the blade to catch fire AS well as having a powerfield. The example is to show that there are many different models and to draw inspiration from, I will start scouring some books and seeing what I can find for blades.

And "Boss Gitsmasha" you have been playing the character longer than that. And the 300xp does give some good benefits, but it is limiting in others. However with a lenient GM, you can use other "bladed" ranged weapons, like a needler, widower, hypopistol, some of the fancy crossbows. And FFG has said Moritat can use power blades/swords/etc., however folks differ on if they get tearing or not.

Crossbows count, but needlers and widowers are guns, not blades. The hypopistol might be allowed because it doesn't cause lethal damage, but a hardline Moritat might argue that a garrote would be the "proper" choice instead.

While Moritat CAN use power blades without penalty, they also do not get a bonus to them, so they're no better than a non-Moritat while still suffering from the inability to use firearms. A regular assassin with a power sword and bolter would be far more effective than an equivalently-leveled Moritat. In addition, 300 XP can buy Climb, Shadowing, and Silent Move, meaning that the Moritat only gains Jaded for free as part of the package. On the downside, they also lose 5 Fellowship and gain 1d5 Insanity as a result, which is worth far more XP than the cost of Jaded. Combined with the crippling drawbacks of the Bloody Edge, and you're basically paying extra experience for a handicap.

Also, since the storm power field shows up in Black Crusade, I'm fairly certain that it would be recognized as tech-heresy. Besides, drxn explicitly said that he wanted to avoid power weapons altogether, if I recall.

I don't see them as pure guns, at the worst they form a basis to make a new weapon or a "counts as"

And our GM (and another) have both said they would let Moritat gain tearing on power weapons.

And the storm field was just an example of it is valuable to look around for other upgrades you may not know exist to get inspiration.

Cymbel said:

The reason Moritat use bladed weapons is because they spill blood. Needle weapons do their damage with toxins instead. Not to mention, they function like guns and don't require the finesse that a blade requires. "Counts as" is also a very dangerous phrase to use; it is very easy to abuse.

As for Moritat gaining Tearing on power weapons, if they managed to retain this then the Moritat would still stay relevant, and I'd have no further issues. A power axe/sword and a blessed stakegun would be all a good Moritat witch-hunter would need in that case. Old-school, classic, and killy; a futuristic throwback to Warhammer Fantasy. I could totally get behind that.

The GM said you could! And 'counts as' in the sense of it being more a crossbow than a gun. (And crossbows are like a gun in some ways). If they can use Stake Crossbows, why not very sharp edged darts or "sharp poisoned slivers"

Cymbel said:

By that logic you'd end up with Moritats running around with combat shotguns, but it's okay because they're using flechette rounds, which are very sharp edged darts. And if crossbows are like a gun in some ways, then surely an actual gun is okay, right?

Boss Gitsmasha said:

No, that is just going insane with counts as and the GM would slap you.

I am just saying for ones that are already close to a moritat weapon but look a bit too modern (while still firing a razor sharp edge).

Anyways, have you ever looked at a modern crossbow bolt? It doesn't have much of an "edge" so letting Moritat use them is silly. Stakes don't have an edge, yet you were okay with Moritat using them (and are others). In the end, I believe it comes down to thus:

1. Does it have a cutting edge?
2. Does it deal Rending Damage (if not, does it still have a blade for whenever the "field/shock stuff" is turned off it still works like a blade)
3. Does it have some archaic design that works with the above (if not, could it have such cosmetic changes, letting it be a needler/dart launcher with a better Moritat Style)
4. Does it make sense?