Gimp said:

You're misstating facts.

If the scalper buys 20 LE figures from the company. The company is does't lose money they make the same amount they would have made in the first place that's why there is a retail price. You missing major factors.

1. The scalper bought up stock of 20 figures and company sells out of stock….win for company!

2. The scalper sells the LE figures to collectors for $200 …… win for scalper!

3. Scalper now has $1600 to spend (most likely on more figures, paints , ect) ……win for the company!

4. The collector gets what he wants……. win for collector!

5. The collector is called a "collector" because he already bought everything (and then some) from the company……. win for the company!

6. There is one loss and that is the common player doesn't get the LE figure because the scalper got them first…… Loss common player!

The point is the company never loses money.

I agree now if there is a LE figure that sways the balance of the game it is not right. This would cause players to have bad feelings. For this case Bazooka Joe is important for the Allies, so it is not right to not be able to get him from a store (you can buy him very easily online). But a LE model that don't hurt the balance of they game, does not effect the common player, so there is no reason not to have them. If someone can't afford it because the scalper got them all and is now selling for a profit …. that's life. Supply and Demand! Don't be upset because you didn't get a LE Figure, be happy you didn't have to spend $200 for a useless one.

I am not disappointed that Dust-Studio is releasing the formerly out-of-print Joe & Sigrid.

And yes, I do already own both of them.

And I also think that anyone who cares more about the state of the game -- as opposed to either the money they could potentially make off of it or winning individual games of it -- would not be disappointed either. In fact, I think FFG should release cheaper, unpainted versions of J. & S. just so everyone would have access to the minis & threads like these would be moot.

So Dust-Studio reprints Joe & Sigrid, then everyone who does not already own the minis buys a set.

"Win for the company!" Right? Also a win for the (as you've so graciously referred to them) "common player." Right?

Seems like the only one disappointed in this is you, BattleTactics.TV guy.

Thanks for playing, brah…

My name is Ken, nice to meet you!

BattleTactics.tv Group said:

Hi Ken, how's Barbie?

Gimp said:

I couldn't agree more! Case in point…

Some, "friends" of mine went to Privateer Press' Lock & Load weekend. I asked them to, Ninja-shop anything they thought I might find interesting, as I couldn't go due to being short-handed at work and not being able to take the time off. Well, long story short, the one whom I thought was my best friend of the bunch bought a limited edition model for me (at a cost of $18.00), then told me he felt bad for charging me $65.00 for it, because it was going for $75.00 online, and a savings of $10.00 was all he could afford to lose for a friend. I told him to sell it online, and I now refer to that, "friend" as my LGS owner, not my FLGS owner.

@ Ken - You're reply to Gimp's money trail post was pretty good, but breaks down on a number of levels at the end. Basically, you're discounting three large camps…

1. There're folks out there who buy only to sell, and keep a substantial amount of the profits, spreading other purchases out over several other companies, buying LE stuff to resell, most of it not even in the gaming industry.
2. People who'll get frustrated they can't have Joe & Sigrid, and move on to something else when someone who does uses them to beat them consistently in games. (More likely with Joe, but you get the idea).
3. People like me who refuse to buy-into collectible games in the first place, even if the rules and models are amazing.

All three of those groups of people either exacerbate the problem, or are a direct source of lost revenue. I'd rather lose the 1st group, and the group you are in (collectors who buy because it is rare), and sell more products to the masses. But, to each their own. While I've enjoyed your videos, I feel compelled to tell you, I hope you're not as snobbish as your comments in this thread make you appear. If so, I've lost a great deal of respect for you.

PS - I own an AEG core set, so I have Joe & Sigrid. I want my real friends whom I play with to be able to have their own copies as well. Until they do, anyone who plays me is welcome to borrow mine, just wash your hands first.

I would not call that guy your friend at all he should have sold it to you for what he bought it for. I have never tried to make money off of friends. I don't feel that I am a snob and I guess that is how I came off, but I a truly am passionate about Dust and I felt like rare figures would make the game more exciting. Maybe I am too new to tabletop gaming so I haven't seen the effects LE units have on the overall game. I just know I like to collect anything Dust related so I thought it would be cool to have something that you could only get in the original set.

BattleTactics.tv Group said:

Respect regained. Thank you for the reply.

LE figures and cards have a lot of negative impact on games. It starts to become a game where only the people who spend loads of money can win. I'm already wavering when it comes to WoW TCG due to the high price of some cards (+$170 each and four copies needed).

Miniatures are probably more expensive to buy and maintain so it's nice to have a cheap and easy way of getting everything. That's kinda why I got into Dust Tactics because it's affordable and everything (besides the two Core heroes) are available to me. Having these heroes on retail would definitely make me happy even if it's in a different pose would make me a happy camper just in case I choose to draft them in a game. I'd rather not spend $150 for a Core set just to have two figures.

Concerning the devaluation of Joe and Sigrid's rarity, I don't think this will really diminish them too much. For now only the Premium models are previewed and even those are "in short supply" according to the site.

I guess it's a diffrence with our view on the game. Some want the minis to be unique and enjoy not only the playing elements but also the collectable part. Also i understend the need to own the dust stuff, haven't felt like a little kid in years and the thought about those snipers coming next week feels so nice! We all have diffrent altitude towards the game, some paint minis, some only wash them or do nothing. Some buy premium sets ( expensive as hell itself IMO) and some keep the costs low. Not to mention the i guess biggest diffrence among our DT family - some own only one unit of the type, some multiply their Laser Grens or ETC. I guess battletactics.TV just expressed his thoughts in a manner that iritated some of us;)

Throw my vote in for limited circulation is CRAP. If you want special buy the premium edition. For the rest of the player, let them have all the units.

I dont think game makers should ever make LE Promos. It is completely disrespectful to all the people who bought, play, and enjoy the game, who were unable to get them.

I have no problem with people liking collectible figures. I have several I've bought through the years because I liked the figure, and could get it when it was released. I'll pay MSRP for a figure if I like it, but I won't pay more when it doesn't support the company I'm theoretically trying to support by buy products from them.

I dislike companies that go the LE figure route because they screw the gamer who likes to buy everything for the game they are pasionate about, and they threaten themselves by running increased cost to produce the LE figure while causing themselves problems by selling it. Add the attitude you get from some of the players who got the LE figure, and decide it makes them special, and it gets less appealing.

Companies are free to produce LE figures. Scalpers are free to invest in them to sell online. People are free to pay whatever they want to get what figures they want. I have no problem with the system. I have nothing against the scalpers for using the system.

I simply have problems with the short-sightedness of companies that go the LE route when I see the results it can cause. I haven't stopped playing any game that went the LE route, but I have stopped doing official support for any game company that does, as well as being slower to purchase more for their games.

I'm also a completionist, so I tend to collect every figure possible for many games I really enjoy. I don't bother for companies that go the LE route, even if I'm there and buy the LE figures when they are released at MSRP. Another game had most figures available as single set figures, but some models were available with multiple configurations. When the company released LE figures, I stopped working to buy every possible configuration for those, as well as every other figure, and dropped back to only collecting the figures I really liked. I see no reason to give extra support to a company that shafts players who would want complete collections and are stuck with scalpers to get it if they aren't one of the lucky few.

The bad taste that gave me still impacts my gaming purchases, because I haven't worked to collect complete sets for any games since that time. I'd been starting to for DUST, but Warfare and some of the new SSU stuff has given me pause.

Im pro limited but only in this case. Having the original core set was the only way of having these two figures. As with the revised core set and his heroes or as the expansions. Its not about making them LE, its about them being included in a box with something else. Releasing the 4 new figures as premium is by my train of thought converting them to LE. Why? Because you are paying 40 dollars for 2 heroes…the same that you can spend in 2 medium walkers or with 5 bucks more 4 units at ebay or amazon.

I understand and think the joy of wargaming must come with how good you customise your figures or how well you paint them and not by what you have…not about the rare units you have.

But in this case, the figures being part of the original box is/was some kind of way of saying "hey you tried us out from the beginning so enjoy having 2 special heroes!" Then releasing the 2 with different poses would make everyone happy.

I have bad news for everyone…If you did not notice, dust-models has a whide variety of limited edition items…they are called premium versions or dust 45 complete models.

As much as I am happy that other people get to play with the 2 original set heroes, paying 40 bucks to have them is as bad as them being limited with the original core set. Why? Because only people with money can get those. They are (in my opinion) a waste of money because of the price.

Also I dont have a lot of money and just bought a original core set for 100…so it kind of makes me happy to know I have 2 heroes being limited for the ammount of money I paid. But thats me, I dont show off and Im buying dust to play with my friends that have no dust miniatures.

BattleTactics.tv Group said:

I searched the web like crazy to find the core set at a good price.

Keeping in mind that joe and sigrit could get to a nice price for being rare.

I hoped to make profit of it by selling these for a nice price so I could buy new dust units.

I am happy for everyone that joe and sigrit are for sale soon but in deed thay should have made them in a diverend pose..

What I don't understand is why selling rare units is a "bad"thing.

Making money this way is a part of my hobby.

Selling them when they are set up as LE figures is not a 'bad' thing. It's simple economics. I have no issue with people using the system when it's there.

What I have issue with is the companies that decide to go with LE figures. The company made their choice, and they get to deal with the negative consequences. As to why:

LE figures cost as much to produce as regular figures, or even more, so they are an equal or greater drain on the company's resources to produce, and so have to be priced higher to offset that cost. Anyone buying the figure has to pay more, or the company has to be able to absorb the loss. The return may be higher per piece if priced high enough, but each piece is a higher risk with a greater cost per piece for it to be economically viable because the cost was just as high as for a regular model with a much greater run to generate income to make it profitable.

LE figures sold by scalpers do not generate any more money for the company than their original selling price, while draining the purchasing gamer's budget far more. The scalper might turn around and invest their money in the game, but if they don't turn around 100% to the original company, the company winds up losing money that could have helped support their game. If a fan scalper reinvests 90% of their scalping funds to the game, the company still loses that 10%. There are a lot of scalpers that are not fans, so their lower reinvestment is a bigger loss.

LE figures are available for a limited time, so anyone coming into the game late is stuck with scalper prices, or not being able to get the figures. That engenders both the negative aspect of the 'haves' sticking their figures into other players' faces, and players who can't afford the scalping prices or find the figures getting frustrated because they can't get a figure they want to be able to play with.

LE figures causing frustration are a source of negative advertising, as every player who gets frustrated is likely to complain to the other gamers they know, and so can reduce the player base. Someone telling friends they got a LE figure that's no longer available is going to have far less positive effect.

I have no issue with the characters being sold as premium painted figures, and far less for characters sold for general release with a different pose than a limited release figure. The first allows anyone who feels the premium paint job is worth the price to buy them, and the second allows any player to get at least one version of the figure to play with. I've still seen the second create bad feelings, but nothing like a figure only a 'special' few can ever have.

Creating characters, and then making it so players who are trying to support the game can't get them is a disservice to those players.

Creating characters that are harder to have pay for themselves while possibly driving customers away from frustration is not a good recipe for the producing company.

I've seen a lot of hard feelings through the years from this, and never have I found the overall positive feelings for the company increased.

One player who is happy they got an LE figure and keeps buying is not worth even one that stops or reduces purchasing because they got frustrated by the LE figure's availability. The first would keep buying anyway, so even one who leaves is all loss.