So, I brought out my Premium Bot Hunters for a demo game yesterday and noticed something I hadn't paid any attention to before…

None of the riflemen have UGLs. At first, I thought Dust Studios must have messed up and put the wrong rifles on them. Then it dawned in me to check the DT unit card for Bot Hunters, and wouldn't you know it, no UGL stat-line. So, I double-check the DW unit entry and see this…

" Unit Upgrades:

• 3 AP: Upgrade one additional M1 AR and UGL to an M9 Bazooka"

So my question now is this: Do you think Andy, Mack, et al. changed them to keep their UGLs, or do you think they didn't even look at the DT upgrade card? In other words, Do you think the Upgraded Combat Ranger Squad should have 3 UGLs or 0 UGLs to coincide with WYSIWIG and DT?

My Gunners, those from the original core set, have ugls.

Im not talking about the basic Gunners squad, I'm talking about their upgrade, "Bot Hunters" which replace 1 rifle and in DT all their UGLs with an extra M-9 Bazooka.

The non-premium set has the UGLs. So it's still WYSIWYG, unless someone has the premium Bot Hunter squad.

felkor said:

I own both. The non-premium set is just, "The Gunners" with an extra M-9 Bazooka toting mini and an extra card. The extra card (Bot Hunter) that comes with the non-premium set doesn't list UGLs on the DT card, so they are not WYSIWIG in DT unless someone has the premium squad. Therein lies my confusion.

I was actually upset when the Premium versions of the Combat Ranger Squad & Battle Grenadiers first came out, and they didn't include the extra guy. It meant I had to buy a second unit of each for the upgrade just to swap out one guy. Then I noticed the card for the Bot Hunters, and realized it was changing 4 guys, which made me feel better about them. As far as the Premium Axis, "Tank Killers" upgrade is concerned, they are modeled without a single Panzerfaust, yet their DT stat-card still gives them 2, so I was still less than thrilled about buying two Battle Grenadier squads. But when they arrived, i saw the leaderalas on a different cap, and they have goggles and are painted slightly different which appeased me some. Of course now I find in DW I actually fit both in enough to not feel bad at all, and I'm glad I bought both, I'm just curious how the Bot Hunters should be played.

Assuming the lack of UGLs on the DT Bot Hunters card is correct, then the DW authors missed it, or intentionally chose to allow the upgraded squad to keep the UGLs. I guess there's a slight chance somebody at Dust Studios made a mistake putting weapons on the upgraded Premium units, and the DT team only changed the Bot Hunters card, but I don't think that as likely. I think it's most likely the DW team didn't even notice the discrepancy.

Of course, as a primarily axis player until the SSU rules come out, everything I'm scrutinizing here could just be the annoyance factor of having to deal with the massive amounts of UGLs my favorite opponent puts on the table, which is only exacerbated by the lack of the Grenade Rule on my two Hans' Grenatewerfer (Grenade Thrower) weapons.

Actually the Tank Killers dont have any panzerfaust. When these two units came out there was some discussion about WYSIWYG issues. The DW stats are set up to intentionnally reflect what you would buy in a box off the shelf in a store. The average store dosnt stock the premium models and if they do they are taking a loss as they are not sold through the regular distribution or retail program.

DoomOnYou72 said:

If you mean the TK models dont have any panzerfausts, I know all that, and mentioned my Tank Killer models don't have them earlier. Your last sentence is definitely true. Is your middle sentence factual first-hand knowledge or educated speculation?

What I must be miscommunicating is that the DT cards that come with the standard versions don't have a UGL stat-line for the upgraded Bot Hunters, but the Tank Killers do have a Panzerfaust Stat-Line on their DT card, even though the Premium models don't have any of either. That's the first oddity, and existed before DW was even a work in progress.

My main point and reason for strting this thread was just me commenting on an oddity, and musing on whether this discrepancy between the DT and DW stat-lines was intentional like all of the grenades being removed from German non-sniper Infantry, or was it just an oversight because they just used a standard Combat Ranger Squad Stat Card without bothering to check the upgraded Bot-Hunter card (which I use the term, "upgraded" loosely in DW - Trading 1 rifle and 4 UGLs in DT is much closer to an upgrade, than doing so in DW - Cover denying is very strong in DW).

I'm not sure why, but it feels like folks are trying to tell me I'm wrong about something here. I've only stated…

• Physical Model Facts - What weapons are actually on what minis in the respective units - being fully aware of the differences in the regular & Premium ones as I own both versions of both units of both factions.
• Physical Stat-Lines - What weapons are actually on what basic and upgraded units - being fully aware of the DT (own the latest cards from the card pack) and DW (Own the rulebook) stats for the regular Combat Ranger and Battle Grenadier squads as well as their, "Bot Hunter" and, "Tank Killer" upgrades.

I was just pointing out something I thought odd, added my speculation, and hoped the topic would discuss the oddity/discrepancy between the upgrades and include speculation as to what you folks thought was likely to be the design intent. Instead, it feels like it devolved immediately into a case of my models are different than yours. Totally my fault for not giving a more detailed setup, but I now worry my original query is lost in the minutia of proving my facts wrong, than in evolving a collective thesis as to why the facts are disparate, both between model types and cards as well as the two different rules sets. If someone can make sense of what I was getting at and bring it back on topic, please do. If not, let's just let this thread die.