Peacekeeper_b said:
And from what I have read so far, even if I like most of it, it could have been left (and probably should have been left) as Dark Heresy supplement.
Looks like this ain't landing at Gen Con…
Droma said:
Peacekeeper_b said:
And from what I have read so far, even if I like most of it, it could have been left (and probably should have been left) as Dark Heresy supplement.
I heavily disagree with that. There is as much or more fluff associated with the imperial guard than there is with the inquisition. Creating its own game system seems like the correct choice. Even as far as just the rules go there is way too much here that is hugely different from DH for it to just be a supplement.
Only war plays and and feels vastly different from DH so far. I'm really liking the new system.
Howdy,
Historically, there was WAY more fluff associated with the Inquisition and Space Marines, both for gaming (the game Inquisitor, etc) as well as in the fiction. Heck - of the first 4 Warhammer 40K books EVER published, two dealt with the Inquisition. There has been increasing numbers of IG fiction released in the last 7-10 years, though thanks to Gaunt's Ghosts, Last Chancers, etc.
You could argue that a better choice would be releasing Only War as a supp for Deathwatch, but it would have to be a *large* supp due to the focus of the super-human Space Marines in the core DW rules. An IG supp for Dark Heresy would work, as it would flesh-out an existing career path and add more options. However, if you are going to approach an IG book as a resource for mass combat, vehicles galore, intensive military roleplaying, etc, then spinning it off as a separate core game is the logical step. I would argue that it may not be the smartest step…
The IG path in DH is valuable in-game and in the fluff. A support book adding more flavour and options would be a no-brainer. An independent IG guard is problematic. Most military-based roleplaying games fail or under-perform in the market. The military genre and structure is rigid, does not encourage diverse responses and actions, does not generally encourage wanton violence (like most rpgs) and does not support the acquisition of goods and "treasure". Deathwatch bucks this trend as you are role-playing a SUPER-HUMAN DEATH MACHINE, and many players will forgive rigid codes and behaviour expectations. Even THEN, many Deathwatch games sputter and die due to the rigid structure.
Left to their own devices, players want to kill who they want, go where they want, and steal what they want.
Cheers,
Ken
For all of you that seem against the idea of the pdf, would it be to cost prohibitive to print it out?
Personally, I would have liked a printed version, but I'm willing to deal with what is offered.
As an aside, just getting into it, I was a bit disappointed at seeing no listing for either the Valhallans or the Tanith First and Only. Upon further reading, I saw that there is a system for creating regiments. Now I just have to pry some folk away from Pathfinder.
Armand23 said:
For all of you that seem against the idea of the pdf, would it be to cost prohibitive to print it out?
Personally, I would have liked a printed version, but I'm willing to deal with what is offered.
As an aside, just getting into it, I was a bit disappointed at seeing no listing for either the Valhallans or the Tanith First and Only. Upon further reading, I saw that there is a system for creating regiments. Now I just have to pry some folk away from Pathfinder.
Howdy!
It depends on your printer. I really recommend the Canon i960 - a reliable printer with CHEAP after-market ink! Printing a 256-page book runs about $0.50 in ink, $1.00 in paper, and about $2.00 to have it bound at the local copy centre. DriveThruRPG has been my new favourite store!
No Valhallans in the core book? I guess we know who will be in the first supplement…
Cheers,
Ken
kwinland said:
Historically, there was WAY more fluff associated with the Inquisition and Space Marines, both for gaming (the game Inquisitor, etc) as well as in the fiction. Heck - of the first 4 Warhammer 40K books EVER published, two dealt with the Inquisition. There has been increasing numbers of IG fiction released in the last 7-10 years, though thanks to Gaunt's Ghosts, Last Chancers, etc.
I'm not sure why you want to bring "history" into the matter at all. Most of the GOOD Inquisition, space marine, and IG books have been released in the last 7-10 years. Not that it even matters. The game is being released now. That means the only thing that matters is how much IG fluff they have to draw on as well as how many IG fans there are.
kwinland said:
You could argue that a better choice would be releasing Only War as a supp for Deathwatch, but it would have to be a *large* supp due to the focus of the super-human Space Marines in the core DW rules. An IG supp for Dark Heresy would work, as it would flesh-out an existing career path and add more options. However, if you are going to approach an IG book as a resource for mass combat, vehicles galore, intensive military roleplaying, etc, then spinning it off as a separate core game is the logical step. I would argue that it may not be the smartest step…
Seeing as DW is a space marine RPG that would be a pretty terrible argument. You're correct in that it could have been a supplement for DH. In fact they could still make that supplement if they chose to however, traditionally new source books haven't concentrated on single classes and have either provided new career paths or provided material that was applicable to many/all. So a book on just the guardsmen career path would actually be a rather odd book to add the to the line.
kwinland said:
The IG path in DH is valuable in-game and in the fluff. A support book adding more flavour and options would be a no-brainer. An independent IG guard is problematic. Most military-based roleplaying games fail or under-perform in the market. The military genre and structure is rigid, does not encourage diverse responses and actions, does not generally encourage wanton violence (like most rpgs) and does not support the acquisition of goods and "treasure". Deathwatch bucks this trend as you are role-playing a SUPER-HUMAN DEATH MACHINE, and many players will forgive rigid codes and behaviour expectations. Even THEN, many Deathwatch games sputter and die due to the rigid structure.
Left to their own devices, players want to kill who they want, go where they want, and steal what they want.
Most military role play games aren't set into a crazy alternate future setting. There are a lot more roleplaying opportunities in an IG game than traditional military roleplay. DW suffers from the problem of people not knowing how to roleplay space marines and the fact that you're so uber that stuff either kills you or it's a joke. Only war is DH power levels so doesn't suffer from those issues.
To be honest it really doesn't matter whether you or I think they should have made a separate core game for the IG. They have made one so the only questions are is it good and will you play it? Heck you could very easily just use this combat and character creation system in a DH game. Nothing is stopping you from roleplaying that you're a bunch of Inquistion storm troopers or just a very militant Inquisitors warband. You could even keep the same career paths from DH and just assign appropriate aptitudes and you'd be good to go.
Howdy!
The reason for my "historical" reference is that MOST of the fluff over the last 20+ years for 40K has traditionally been the Inquisition and Space Marines, which is where the interest in the fan base lies. More IG novels certainly has raised interest in the Guard, but nothing will beat Marines…
DW, in addition to being a game about Marines, also deals with vehicles and mass combat - an IG supp for this would be logical, but would indeed be really large to cover "mundane" humans and the IG org - a separate book/game would be a better choice instead of that route. A number of career paths for DH have seen books fleshing them out (Judges, Sororitas, Priests, upcoming Mechanicus, etc) in addition to adding new material - an DH IG book would have fit the mold.
The unfamiliarity of aspects of Marine life and combat is a big draw - it is a "fresh" take on the military theme. I would argue that being a GOD on the battlefield doesn't hurt, either.
Aside from the futurism and tech, being a mortal Guardsmen is a LOT like playing in a traditional military RPG - you want to survive, go home, get promoted, etc. Shiney toys and weird enemies will only keep your interest for so long. Read the IG fluff - they are for the most part tales of terror and survival, out-gunned and often with dim prospects. Not the most thrilling of RPG premises….
This is the Internet, and opinions are like a$$**** - everyone has got one.
Discussing publication and support material is certainly interesting and relevant, if only for ideas and feedback. I can see some interest in playing Guardsmen, but having run and played in a number of military RPGs (modern, historical, and SF) over the last 30 years, they tend to flop. I have NO interest in an IG core book - I can easily use Guard career paths from DH or alternates from RT to offer players IG flavour in a more interesting setting.
Cheers,
Ken
So you don't like an IG core book, you won't be getting this one, and you'd rather just play DH or RT. Why are you posting in this section again?
I'm sure you're not intending it to be trolling but if you're only discussion on a book is that you don't think it should exist it adds nothing to the conversation. Send FFG customer service an email expressing your lack of interesting and let the rest of us chat about the book.
Droma said:
So you don't like an IG core book, you won't be getting this one, and you'd rather just play DH or RT. Why are you posting in this section again?
I'm sure you're not intending it to be trolling but if you're only discussion on a book is that you don't think it should exist it adds nothing to the conversation. Send FFG customer service an email expressing your lack of interesting and let the rest of us chat about the book.
Greetings,
If you look at the above thread title and earlier messages in the thread, I was originally responding about OW's Beta announcement and publication date rumours. The discussion then migrated towards discussing OW's viability as a stand-alone core book, perceived difficulties with roleplaying military campaigns, and 40K fluff. If you notice, I was replying to YOUR messages. That's OK - I don't think YOU are trolling.
Personally, I think that this is the PERFECT forum for discussion about OW's viability as a stand-alone core book, perceived difficulties with roleplaying military campaigns, and 40K fluff, but perhaps not the right thread.
Cheers,
Ken
ItsUncertainWho said:
Kasatka said:
This assumes that we are happy to buy the PDF version of it. I personally cannot RP without a hard copy of a book in front of me, so now i cannot beta test the book i want to buy because i dont want to throw away extra money on a PDF i'll never use? Seems like a quick fire way to polarize FFG customers and segregate the gaming community.
Then there is no loss for you anyway. You wouldn't normally get to beta test a printed book before you buy it, so there is no difference.
Actually, I've gotten to beta test a number of systems for 4 companies. Not one has ever asked me to pay a portion of the cost upfront to do so, not until Only War. (The closest I'd seen before was video games that let you into the beta test if you pre-order.) This is especially troubling to me for two reasons. The first Kasatka already said; I prefer to have a hardcopy book to look through, this is particularly true for the core rulebook. That the money I would pay to be in the beta test would never be applied to the end product I want, making it a wasted expense for me for helping out the company do a job they need done, especially one that is usually done for free or even occasionally earns you goodies, is rediculous. It is definately not the "normal". The second issue is that I am firmly in the camp that staunchly believes Only War should have remained a DH suppliment. I preordered it as soon as it was allowed when it was a suppliment, but having purchased 3 of the 40k RPG core rulebooks already I have no desire to purchase a 4th. That's already what kept me from buying Black Crusade, which I didn't even consider. IG is my favorite faction, so I was at least going to look into it for Only War. Demanding money upfront to just help beta test the game is NOT going to make me more eager to buy a product I'm already skeptical can stand on its own.
H.B.M.C. said:
"I've said it before, FFG simply do not have the manpwoer to cope with the release schedule they take on."
And just like every other time you've said it, you're still wrong!
The number of 40k RPG products I've pre-ordered and had delayed says otherwise.
Adding my $0.02 USD…
As someone familiar with game publication, I also am unsettled by the idea of paying to playtest. Traditionally, playtesting has been a JOB, usually paid in merchandise (and often in a playtest byline). I'vd got a lot of game books I earned just that way. And while it's at least made a bit more fair by making the money up front essentially a down payment on the complete PDF, I would have been a whole lot happier if A) FFG had been completely, bold-print up front about the cost - what happened smacks of bait-and-switch internet marketing ******-baggery, and B) if the very act of doing the work of playtesting got the playtesters a complete copy of the finished PDF, in essence giving a half-price copy for the play-testing work.
As for PDF books, while I do enjoy the hard copy, I would love to have every 40K RPG book on PDF, simply for the convenience of carrying them. You try to carry every darn book in the series. Heck, try to stuff more than three of the core books in a back-pack. Sure, you can get them in, but the mass adds up. Now add supplements. Go on. Uh huh; thinking of fetching a forklift, aincha?
As for the psychic rules, the old WFRP rule, which were copied without thought into DH, suck bad. There's too much dice rolling as it stands. Simplify, simplify.