AluminiumWolf said:

AluminiumWolf said:

Y'see, I vehemently disagree with the idea that those two quotes are mutually-exclusive concepts.

I really like the idea of Vampires as predatory creatures for whom humanity is a fading echo of memory at best. I've held this belief for a long time. I've run Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay campaigns using Vampires as exactly that. Whether or not the Vampires themselves are sexual creatures (at least in a recreational sense - being dead, reproduction is often regarded as impossible within the genre) is largely irrelevant to the issue of what the Vampires are like as individual creatures.

I think Vampires are cool. I don't, however, believe that thinly-veiled necrophilia (which is, at its heart, what having sex with the undead would be) is worthy of aspiration… and to my eyes, the frequently-portrayed "vampire boyfriend" trope is never displayed as anything normal, but instead as inherently unnatural and disturbing (the vampire would-be-suitors frequently start off as mysterious stalkers with unknown intentions… as if that's normal behaviour likely to attract positive attention, and so frequently the relationship is compared against a hypothetical "normal life", inherently marking it as abnormal).

Back to the matter of the Astartes.

For me, it's a matter of sacrifice - a Space Marine sacrifices his humanity, his place within mortal existence so that he can stand guard over it. This, I feel, is a common element amongst many of the defenders of the Imperium - give up something significant about your life in order to protect the Imperium. Those who serve the Inquisition sacrifice their innocence so that the rest of Mankind can remain blissfully ignorant of the terrors of the universe. The Imperial Guard give up their home and leave behind their family in order to fight the necessary wars elsewhere. The Adepta Sororitas sacrifice their normal existence in favour of one of servitude to the divine. Space Marines give up their very humanity, to be made into something beyond human, so that they are everything that mankind needs them to be.

Their own desires don't come into it. As with so much about the Imperium, the needs of the individual are irrelevant compared to the requirements of survival.

+++++thinly-veiled necrophilia+++++

Whateva

+++++For me, it's a matter of sacrifice - a Space Marine sacrifices his humanity, his place within mortal existence so that he can stand guard over it. This, I feel, is a common element amongst many of the defenders of the Imperium - give up something significant about your life in order to protect the Imperium. Those who serve the Inquisition sacrifice their innocence so that the rest of Mankind can remain blissfully ignorant of the terrors of the universe. The Imperial Guard give up their home and leave behind their family in order to fight the necessary wars elsewhere. The Adepta Sororitas sacrifice their normal existence in favour of one of servitude to the divine. Space Marines give up their very humanity, to be made into something beyond human, so that they are everything that mankind needs them to be.

Their own desires don't come into it. As with so much about the Imperium, the needs of the individual are irrelevant compared to the requirements of survival.+++++

Sure but people are going to like them more if they have functioning dicks. They are and you **** well know it.

If you want to make the sex skeevy there are many possibilities - massive power imbalance in the relationship, religious overtones, the aforementioned physical difficulties.

I dunno. You could have all Marines copulate for exactly nineteen minutes every other month, as a unit, carefully watched by observers from the Mechanicus and Eclesiarchy and Rememberancers and everyone, with a thousand voice choir providing backing music.

It'll reasure people that everything works right, enable people to tell their own stories how they like, and still be gothic as **** .

Seriously. Get over it and do what you know people will like .

AluminiumWolf said:

What do I care what other people like or want? Outside of the stuff I do professionally, I don't have to even consider other people's preferences.

I'm allowed my opinion, and I'll share it if I feel the urge to, and whether or not people like or agree with that opinion (or not, as the case may be) is entirely beyond my control.

As an extension of this: while I could not care less whether or not you manhandle yourself to the thought of Space Marine porn, attachment rails on firearms, or whatever else, I would like to ask that you be a little less… insistent… about it. I think that everyone here has been made fully aware of your personal preferences, so you don't need to go on about them at quite such length or with quite so much ferocity.

I once played in a V:TM game with one of the developers(Jess Heinig), who played a Settite monster sex deviant, so even the developers were in on the wall to wall smut, Wolf.

I shouldn't speculate on the latent homoerotic overtones that are out there with this, either, but why not, lets do it.

So these ships have no women, far as I can tell, and wall to wall men, who fight, and bleed and whatever together for days, weeks, months, maybe longer, and develop these serious relationships with men only.

Am I the only one that finds this pretty obviously headed down the left hand path? I'm pretty sexually liberal, and don't personally care, wouldn't bother me if one of the Marines in my Deathwatch group was playing Sparkle, the gay marine, but the undertones it gives the game is sort of odd.

On the other hand, I guess its time for a game to approach that sort of thing, even vaguely. Kudos to FFG for having that sort of intestinal fortitude.

+++++What do I care what other people like or want?+++++

Heaven forfend you make something people would actually like eh?

AluminiumWolf said:

Meh. I write for my own pleasure. Whether or not people enjoy it is up to them. Given that I've been asked to do more work for FFG fairly often, I must be doing something right…

Well, for what it is worth, what I argue I argue because I genuinely think a lot of people would like it. I think bringing fun to as many people as possible is what 40k is for, and it is with that in mind that I make suggestions.

--

+++++I shouldn't speculate on the latent homoerotic overtones that are out there with this, either, but why not, lets do it.+++++

Seeten said:

Even if you don't elect to allow the possibility of female Space Marines (and most don't), there is nothing that prevents sizable numbers of Chapter Serfs from being female.

Not to mention prison shows us what happens when male populations are stuck in situations where its just all men all the time.

I think if I were doing up the fluff on this myself, I'd make sure to note the support staff on these ships includes women in all sorts of support roles.

To be frank, I'd have made sure to include roles for women in the actual core game, too. Half my RPG group is women, so Deathwatch is on our "Never getting played" list just due to half the group feeling left out.

There's actually nothing in the Iliad to indicate something sexual between Achilles and Patrochlus. For that matter, evidence that Sappho was a lesbian (in the sexual sense, not the being from Lesbos sense) is extremely sparse, based on one poem in which she uses a feminine ending (by which logic Bob Dylan must be gay).

But I digress. The homoerotic overtones in Space Marines are obvious.

AluminiumWolf said:

borithan said:

Well, that is debatable, and anyway if true all it shows is that that turned out to turn a fair number of people on.

Either way, the modern popularity of the Vampire is based pretty firmly on sex, so unless you are trying to actively confront and challenge this view (and people do - I was discussing this with my sister and one of her internet friends is always going on about things like 'How can they talk if they don't breath!' and writing the definitive Vampire non-sex book that will put all those people reading Vampire porn in their place!') you have to be pretty much wilfully obtuse not to notice it.

I guess fundamentally, you know how much effort people put in to writing slash fiction? It seems pretty Wrong Headed to try to make Marines impotent purely to prevent people writing slash fiction about them.

I am mildly reluctant to bump this topic (so feel free to let it sink), but when considering peoples reaction to Eunuch Space Marines it might be worth pondering just how many jokes people are making about Lance Armstrong only having one ******** on twitter right now…

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Actually the Adepta Sororitas don't sacrifice anything (willingly). They are just female orphans from Schola Progenium that are raised into the zealots they are.

AluminiumWolf said:

Let the people think for themselves. If GW wanted to attract horny teenagers, they would have hone it already. Also IIRC there was some love affair between Gabriel Angelos (Blood Ravens captain, later chapter master) and one Eldar farseer in one of C.S.Goto's books. But since most people (if not all, I've yet to see anything positive written about his work) consider Goto a trash writer and put it equal to some fapfic. That may say more about "what people would like".

AluminiumWolf said:

Given the fact that masses are interested about gossip crap like "whom married this actor" or "how many fans has this or that rock star f***ed", I think you are reading too much into it. It is like conspiracy theories, where their creators get a few facts, conjure some half-truths and/or outright lies, connect it together and masses of people are believing it.

Masses are dumb. If you want to entertain masses, all you have to do is to cater to the lowest common denominator.

klaymen_sk said:

Also, Lance Armstrong lost a ball years ago, it's only now that he's being hounded for doping (in the most corrupt, drug riddled international sporting event) that suddenly people are ripping the piss about it. Plus the 40k universe doesn't havve twitter so that shouldn't be a problem.

klaymen_sk said:

I guess fundamentally I think 40k is for the masses. It sure isn't some kind of intellectual exercise enjoyed only by an elite.

It's not for "an elite." It's for "a niche." 40k is a niche interest. Always has been, always will be. Those interested in 40k are generally not going to think the background improved if Space Marines start having sex. I don't think anyone seriously slagging off some guy for only having one ******** are going to be that interested in 40k. They are generally 2 distinct groups, and I don't think the 40k setting would benefit in any way from trying to appeal to those obsessing over a guy having one ********, or to those that really, really care about whether Space Marines are functional or not..