that

Not really sure what I did wrong on the last post, but hopefully the content at least makes sense.

Blood Pact said:

I would disagree. As I've said, I think this is an interesting debate, that thankfully has not degenerated into bickering and mutual recriminations. Wolf has been very generous, as many comments directed towards him have not been as well phrased or as polite as they could have been, including some of mine. He has responded well, and not been rude or aggressive in his opinion, even though he has been persistant. There is nothing wrong with that, either. It's good he's sticking to his beliefs, whether or not any of us share them.

It sounds to me like he wants to play a version of Warhammer 40,000 that resembles a Troma movie, like Toxic Avengers or maybe something out of a graphic novel someone drew during their jr. high geometry class and printed at a Kinko's. It's not what I hink is cool, or what game I want to play, but he paid his money for his books, he has his group and they probably have alot of fun. Just as much as me.

So if Wolf is that guy, he's probably that guy that says whatever simply to annoy the ever-living **** out of everyone else, smiling the whole time. Nothing is inherently wrong with his opinions, there's plenty of room for all kinds of interpretations. It is nice that there have been 9 pages of posts, and no one has, as yet, resorted to name calling or accusations. Yes, Wolf's ideas seem ridiculous to me too, but remember that when we're talking about stuff like genetically modified humans with two hearts, three lungs, vat grown muscles and spit acid that somehow miraculously doesn't harm their teeth, it's all pretty ridiculous. At least now we understand each other better.

Lionus said:

It is more that I would prefer Marines to be cool in a fairly uncomplicated way.

I suspect if you asked Mr. Dembski-Bowdem what he thought was interesting about Space Marines, he would say they are interesting because they are the virgin supersoldiers of an uncaring God Emperor, taken as children and made in to something other than human. And okay. But I am kind of more interested in how Marines are Awesome because they are Totally Sweet.

If you wanna settle down to geek out over Batman or Jason Bourne or Conan or James Bond (or pretty much ANY action hero) you don't have to go through twenty page arguments about why it is in fact really cool that they haven't had an erection in three hundred years.

--

Here, for instance, we have Ben Roberts-Smith - member of the Australian SAS and holder of the Victoria Cross.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith

If a bleeding Space Marine can't be as cool as this guy, what good are they?

And to go slightly meta, here we see TV talk show hosts questioning Mr. Roberts-Smith's sexual prowess:-

http://video.heraldsun.com.au/2203374142/Victoria-Cross-medal-recipient-mocked

+++++Stynes's guest, co-host and veteran journalist George Negus had then quipped: "I'm sure he's a really good guy, nothing about poor old Ben. But that sort of bloke, and what if they're not up to it in the sack?"

Another host questioned whether Negus was suggesting "that he could be a dud root", to laughter from the audience.++++++

Are Marines nothing in the sack? Are they, too 'dud roots'?

AluminiumWolf said:

Anyway that statement about Indiana Jones has various things wrong.

He is handsome, intelligent and single. Don't really get the impression he sleeps around that much. How many women is he involved with in entire film series? 2. And neither really struck me as "sleeping around." He seemed to have genuine feelings for them. Seems more like he was a serial monogamist than a "playa." When students express interest in him he seems more flustered and confused by it than open to the actual possibility of sleeping with them.

Though the punching people thing is pretty much bang on.

"If you wanna settle down to geek out over Batman or Jason Bourne or Conan or James Bond (or pretty much ANY action hero) you don't have to go through twenty page arguments about why it is in fact really cool that they haven't had an erection in three hundred years."

- Erm… and you don't have to with Space Marines, as no one ever really talks or cares about a Space Marine's sex life. Well, except you.

Dude. Compared to Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Snow, Robb Stark, The Kingslayer, The Hound, The Mountain That Rides, The Knight of Flowers, The Onion Knight and everyone else?

Apart from anything else he is a ******* eunuch!

+++++- Erm… and you don't have to with Space Marines, as no one ever really talks or cares about a Space Marine's sex life. Well, except you.++++++

I didn't start this thread. And you can pretty much guarantee that on any forum where Marines are discussed a similar thread will be on the first page.

And, as mentioned, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJUi4cB4oc#t=1m58s

And Mr. Dembski-Bowdem at least is strongly hinting that Marines are neutered.

--

Can people really see someone suggesting - 'I know - in the next movie Bond is captured by Cornish Separatists and they castrate him! And the rest of the series is about him coming to terms with the personal tragedy!'.

No. It would be dumb there, and it is dumb here.

borithan said:

Beat me to the punch with Varys. He is up in the top 5 best characters in that series.

Eli from Let the Right One In also comes to mind.

AluminiumWolf said:

Yes, it would be dumb here as a story arc. I don't see a Space Marine's loss of sexuality as being a story hook, because they also absolutely do not care, and it does not bother them in the slightest, like how I'm never really bothered about the fact that I don't have a swim bladder like a goldfish. Ain't no reason to talk about it, because the Space Marines don't care. Now if you want to talk about the people around them, anyone educated enough to know about Space Marines' non-sexuality also lives in a universe so brutal that a passing, wistful "What a waste" thought is all you're getting. Not like they're gonna make fun of them - they know that everything about Space Marines is engineered into the perfect bulwark against the darkness, and that's that. Just like how no one has an existential crisis when they encounter a servitor, which if we encountered one in real life, would be REALLY TERRIFYING AND HORRIFIC, like beyond-Nazi-Science bad, but it's just normal in 40k.

+++++Not like they're gonna make fun of them+++++

I can't help but feel 'stiff as a Space Marines cock' would be near universal Guard slang for floppy.

AluminiumWolf said:

If that was ever said out loud the person saying it would be shot for treason and blasphemy.

****, the forum ate my post.

And I don't have the patience to retype it all, or the patience for this stupid thread right now, aside from stopping to say Ventris hits the nail.

And that the need to jam frequent and constant sexual excapades for the Space Marines in to the fluff (because canon, they just don't care) would make the game more infantile than it's already accused of being.

1:- If you don't think they would want to advertise their impotence in universe why would players out of universe like it any more?

2:- I think it is… Unlikely… that the ubermacho soldiers of a universe with a bad case of testosterone poisoning would refrain from taking the piss.

'Our defence in that sector is about as solid as the **** on a Space Marine! No offence My lords.'

'The Vox took a stray round and now it works like the **** on a Space Marine!

'You horrible shower are about as much use as a **** on a Space Marine! Get over that Fething wall! '

'Holy Throne! Apples! Those things are as rare as a **** on a Space Marine!'

'Our air support is about as in much evidence as the **** on a Space Marine!'

Given how often this comes up, I think you could easily justify having every NPC the Marines meet ask them if it is true that Space Marines have no *****.

+++++would make the game more infantile than it's already accused of being.+++++

1: I am not sure that telling people you sit around pretending to be the hardest battle virgins in the galaxy! is really going to win you points with anyone who cares

2: If people are going to **** you for wanting to play a Space Marine anyway you may as well ensure you are getting the maximum possible enjoyment from it

3: In all honestly, a roleplaying game is not really my favourite medium for this sort of thing, beyond making the occasional **** joke. But the occasional **** joke is important.

4: I think the ideal roleplaying game avoids giving the impression of being infantile, while at the same time allowing players to revel in infantile behaviour. Which see Vampire: The Masquerade or Dogs in the Vineyard. This is why I suggest ripping off Pendragon. Pendragon is one of the most respected, po-faced RPGs there is, and it revolves around this ****.

5: Speaking of Game of Thrones, it isn't like I am really suggesting that 40k needs to have as much sex as goes on in Game of Thrones, and people seem to love that. Similarly, Rome.

AluminiumWolf said:

It depends on whether you see the interactions between the Imperial Guard and the Astartes as being those of two different groups of (otherwise human) warriors, or one of mortal soldiers compared to literal Angels of Death.

As I see it, to 99.99999999% of the population of the Imperium, a Space Marine is a divine entity, a creature removed from the concerns of ordinary men by the blessings of the Emperor in order to strike down all that would threaten mankind… particularly as the nature of a Space Marine's augmentations are essentially secret. I can't imagine that anybody's first thought upon seeing a Space Marine for the first time is "I wonder if he's capable of fornication?".

Beyond that… consider the other extreme. If the Astartes are sexually-capable beings… are there any women in existence capable of withstanding the act? Or is it a Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex situation, where any Space Marine's partner ends up being ripped to pieces? Because that situation results in just as much lack of sex as inability, unless the Astartes in question want to try it with Ogryn females.

I'm always down to get freaky with Ogryn females. Who isn't?

+++++I can't imagine that anybody's first thought upon seeing a Space Marine for the first time is "I wonder if he's capable of fornication?".+++++

Okay, maybe this is just me, but if I ever met an Angel, I would totally want to know:-

http://carm.org/can-angels-have-sex-with-people

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/giants.htm

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/angels_sex.html

http://www.alamoministries.com/content/english/Literature/doangels.html

http://mickeymcnew.hubpages.com/hub/didangelshavesexwiththedaughtersofmen

Dogma:-

+++++' Oh, get over it, will you? I couldn't if I wanted to. Angels are ill-equipped.

[he drops his pants to show blank skin where his genitals should be]

+++++Beyond that… consider the other extreme. If the Astartes are sexually-capable beings… are there any women in existence capable of withstanding the act? Or is it a Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex situation, where any Space Marine's partner ends up being ripped to pieces?+++++

How grimdark do you want to go? There are websites that specialise in that kind of art. :-)

Slightly more seriously, that is where the specially reinforced Marine concubines come in.

What a fascinating discussion this is. Great job by everyone not degenerating it into a mess.

Wolf, as an Eldar player, I've frequently insulted Marine players for being " 'ard " but not "Hard" and for many of the other flaws you've listed. LOL. Its a great time.

If I were engaging in Deathwatch, I certainly would not want to be a eunuch/gelded/chem-geld, whether romance ever actually occurred or not.

I think romance in a Deathwatch game could be fascinating, and yeah, what could you do with the girl, even if functional is another interesting plot line.

Seeten said:

I agree with your first line, but as for the second… "Fade to black" really should just stay at "fade to black."

Well thats the core issue, if fade to black becomes "You wake up, the girl you were with appears dead." The investigations shows she died of internal injuries sustained via the fade to black moment, you have all sorts of drama.

I'm not talking about playing out the bump n grind…although to each their own, I guess.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Just from my RP history:

What about Vampires (prior to that Twilight toss, although that is a situation where they gained the ability to have sex and babies but lost all vestiges of manliness)

Stormers, Chagrin, Xeno and Vevaphon from SLA industries.

A certain type of werewolf.

From Film, TV and stuff:

Terminator

Robocop

Rutger Hauer, or indeed any of the replicants from Blade Runner,

Eunuch Tsao Siu Yan from New Dragon Gate Inn

Jem'Hadar from start trek.

To name a few…

Obviously not all are refered to as Eunuch but then prior to AW Space Marines hadn't either.

With vampires…

Anne Rice's vampires couldn't have sex (1), but I think it is fair to say the idea wasn't universally popular. Vampires can have sex in, for instance, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Blade, Underworld, Anita Blake, Bram Stocker's Dracula, True Blood, and Twilight. And as I understand it, a lot of the fans of the original series of Vampire Diaries books assumed sex was going on, and when a new series of books was published 17 years later in which the author made it clear there wasn't people were not univerally impressed (2). In the Vampire Diaries TV show vampires can and do have sex.

My sister reads a lot of 'Paranormal Romance' novels:-

http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syltguides/fullview/R1TYFUHNS2QQOI/ref=cm_syt_fvlm_f_3_rlrsrs0

most of which feature a scantily clad sexy (male) vampire on the cover, so I ASSUME there is a fair amount of vampire sex in them.

And anyway, I believe the official line is that Vampires in Vampire the Requiem can have sex but don't enjoy it much while Vampires in Vampire the Masquerade were capable of going through the motions if they had to but didn't enjoy it at all. But then, no one I knew ever played it like that.

--

Pris the replicant in Bladerunner is described as being a 'basic pleasure model'.

(RS is Ridley Scott:-

(1) Incidentally Anne Rice has this to say on True Blood:-

+++++ Back to True Blood, how do you feel about the show’s depiction of vampires as these uninhibited, primal, sexual beings?

I’m a fan of the show. I see it as a logical part of it all. [Harris] has expanded the sexuality that’s inherent in that idea. I didn’t think of that, but as my books went on, I involved my vampires in more sexuality. But I couldn’t go as far as Charlaine Harris did, because I had said that my vampires can’t have sex; that the act of drinking blood is orgasmic for them. She’s doing it a different way. She’s saying that this blood drinker must also be dynamite in bed. Makes sense!+++++

The desexualization of vampires (to make them PG for broader audiences) is a recent fad. Google "Dhampir". Most beasties from traditional lore were very sexual and capable of procreation.

I think the idea with Anne Rice vampires and similar is that the act of drinking blood replaces traditional sexuality, but in practice this …Didn't Work… for a lot of fans.

AluminiumWolf said:

+++++In the case of Buffy, I know it happens, but I am just unsure how. They are explicitly dead in that series, and have no heartbeat or anything… How does blood (presuming they have any) get anyway it needs to?+++++

Dude, if they are dead how are they moving around at all? I am more than happy to rule their erections are maintained by pure hate, or whatever.

+++++Now, yes, Vampires are often presented as "sexual" beings, but in the past this is more as a representation of fear of sex (as deviant etc), rather than them being that enticing themselves.+++++

(Dude,) here are some authors talking about why they like writing vampire based romances. Note that they are all women .

Not sure how I feel about your relentless research into female vampire erotica, AWolf.

Impressed, yet mildly disturbed, perhaps?

Nice work.

I'll assume your sister helped you out with that AW.

But not to digress any further, I was just listing popular fictional characters which, like Eunuchs, either couldn't have sex or couldn't breed for one reason or another.

Obviously I was only referring to males based on the subject. I've never even read the Female Eunuch.

Vampire's, as used to be flashed about in White Wolf, were essentially sensual but not sexual. Not really that on target but regardless, thousands of us played those characters quite happily.

Not seen the Terminator Chronicles and it sounds like it follows the movies downward trend. Arnie is still The Terminator in my eyes regardless of later models being more human and sexually capable.

Robocop is the closest, to our subject matter. That's pretty cool and everything but I'm not sure I would like to be shot to pieces to be put back together as cyborg cop.

Same with Space Marines, they have fewer downsides, but lets face it none of us would make it out of the selection process alive, let alone suffering the incredibly painful and invasive surgery that we have a slim chance of assimilating to, then to be a Hypno indoctrinated servant of a dead Emperor with little in the way of human emotions, and on top of that you don't have sex.

Fortunately neither the OCP nor the Space Marine chapters are looking for volunteers, although the fanatically faithful might wish for it.

+++++Not sure how I feel about your relentless research into female vampire erotica, AWolf.

Impressed, yet mildly disturbed, perhaps?+++++

Vampire is my (other) big game, so I have Views on it. I've tended to play in groups where the players divide fairly evenly between Nerds and Deviants, with the Nerds playing Blade and the Deviants doing… wall to wall Smut. The resulting mix is, in my opinion, a thing of beauty.

My first encounter with vampires was The Lost Boys, and as a result I have always tended towards the 'Sleep all day. Party all night. Never grow old. Never die.' approach to vampires.

(And further, when someone first broached the idea that Vampires couldn't get it up, my response was '**** no, that's dumb' and I've ignored it ever since. I feel the …warm response… to vampire romances entirely validates my position.)

By and large, I feel that people who claim to want impotent vampires don't do it because they think impotent vampires are cool - far from it. They don't think vampires should be cool . They think vampires should be monsters, predators, something to be feared. Not… Boyfriend material. The fact that people write endless books about getting in on with vampires really ticks them off , especially given how popular they are.

My central thesis for why Marines should shag is that people liked vampires far more once they got their penises back, so, in essence, get over it, and make with the dicking!