AluminiumWolf said:

Everyone's welcome to their own opinion, and just because I don't subscribe to yours doesn't mean I think it's any less valid as an opinion. Hopefully that same courtesy will be extended to me here, instead of this being misinterpreted as a personal slight. That said…

I think if you're worried about this, you would never have been considered to make the choice to begin with.

I get the idea about Marines being something other than human, I just don't think it would be a good idea for GW to make Marines something that no one would actually want to be. I'm not sure they operate on that level.

I'm thinking more Conan or James Bond. Superman has Louis Lane, Spiderman has Mary Jane and Batman Catwoman.

And hell, even TECH PREISTS have significant others! It isn't like Marines couldn't.

--

And yeah, I'm not Space Marine material, but if it means being a eunuch, I'm not sure I'd want to be .

AluminiumWolf said:

It turns into something Space Marines don't do? Well… yeah. Space Marines are seperate from humanity. They become great avatars of war, but they are no longer truely human, and so human frailties and drives no longer apply to them. I would also disagree that it has become more apparent… Space Marines have always been about blowing **** up, and they have never been about dates with girls…

I wouldn't say the problem with Halo books is the lack of personality of Spartans due to lack of sex drive… it has probably got more to do with the quality of the writing of the books. Many perfectly good books don't have any romance or sex in them. And frankly, I would consider master chief to have more personality than most Marines.

Why do you play computer games? For Sex? Why do you read books? For Sex? Why do you eat? For Sex? Why do play roleplaying games? For Sex…. wait, if that is the reason I probably don't want to know.

Most of what we do has very little, if anything to do with sex. Of course sex does, and many of our interactions with the gender we are interested in are, but so much has nothing to do with sex… in fact, historically sex has often been subserviant to other concerns, like property.

AW, the fact that your definition of "man" is "bones things", and the fact that you absolutely cannot begin to comprehend why sexuality simply does not matter to a centuries-old semi-divine warrior in a universe of perpetual darkness speaks volumes.

AluminiumWolf said:

That's officially the first time I'd heard anything in 40k universe referred to as aspirational ever. And I'm not sure GW is that bothered, they specifically went for grimm dark rather than an optimistic future.

And they've had 25 years and 10000 years of history to mention Space Marines having kids and families so they are certainly not silently implying that they do have kids even if they aren't saying why.

In universe, becoming a space marine is a massive honour. One that aspirants will literally kill to achieve. And still there is no background on space marines having families or partners and some very vague comments on whether they want or have sexual relations at all.

Out of universe, huge over-muscled super soldiers are not the first archetype most people would go for if they want to play someone getting it on. Bear in mind what steroids do to reproductive systems.

+++++That's officially the first time I'd heard anything in 40k universe referred to as aspirational ever. And I'm not sure GW is that bothered, they specifically went for grimm dark rather than an optimistic future.+++++

While I have often commented that the guys who say they joined the army because they were in to Warhammer were not paying attention , it kinda depends who you are. Living in 40k would be terrible for, say, me, but if you are Conan or Gotrek or Judge Dredd there is no place better to be. Characters like that need an ultraviolent dark future to be heroes.

I guess Rambo is a good example - in a warzone he is a hero. In small town America he is a public menace.

Course, Dredd doesn't have sex either, but he is capable and hangs around with a lot of attractive female judges. And gets attention, even if he spurns it.

If nothing else, you could easily run stories about your own Judges having illicit romances.

--

+++++absolutely cannot begin to comprehend why sexuality simply does not matter to a centuries-old semi-divine warrior in a universe of perpetual darkness+++++

It isn't so much about Marines as GW customers. I think they want to be very careful about making Marines less characters you think are awesome and more characters deserving of… Pity.

AluminiumWolf said:

Space Marines are the archetypical tragic hero. They give up their humanity, separating themselves from their own kind, so they can save humanity.

The basis of a space marine is the romantic notions of a driven child who has all that makes them human stripped away or suppressed before the child knows any better. The ones whose training was less successful may come to realize their loss as they grow older. Those who cannot deal with that fall.

They are meant to be pitied.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Being castrated is just too tragic . And anyway, it is something that has been done to them, not a flaw of themselves.

Plus I am not entirely convinced that Marines are not really just Action Heros.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I dunno. Again, they made that I am a Space Marine trailer, which implies they want you to think being a Space Marine is cool.

AluminiumWolf said:

That campaign also said 'I AM WAR!'

not

'I AM WAR and also a sex machine, so ladies…'

Face Eater said:

True enough, but I can totally see the overweight short order cook say

'I have never kissed a girl and my genitalia was removed to save weight.

..

..

..

Wait? What!!!!!????11!'

AluminiumWolf said:

Hi again, Wolf. I think I've got something to say on this.

I started this thread kind of in jest, but it was, I admit, based on my surprise that something I thought was fundamental to the Marine concept didn't seem to be. Now, you've set me straight on that, and that's cool. Thank you.

I woudl ask you to consider, though, that when I started this thread, I'd already bought the RPG . I own and have played the Dawn of War games. I've had a twelve-year-old's-awesomeness crush on the Marines (specifically, the Blood Angels) since I first saw the box art for the original Space Hulk . When I, some fifteen years ago, decided to enter the core 40K hobby and build an army, it was Marines (again, Blood Angels).

All (okay most; I read Space Marine because I as already into 40K thanks to Space Hulk ) of this with that implicit idea, again from my reading of Ian Watson's Space Marine (which, I confess, weirded me out in several instances), that Marines weren't sexually active.

Would I want to be a Marine if he were missing that component of being a human? I don't know, but I can certainly say that there are a hell of a lot of other reasons that I wouldn't want to be a Marine. That doesn't stop me from liking the big, silly, xenophobic lunks in their metal suits, from investing in the idea of their awesomeness. The idea that Marines Don't Dig Chicks (or Dudes either, for that matter) didn't and doesn't stop them from being OTT Metal Awesome Up To 11 to me.

Hey, I'm unusual. I know that. But I don't think I'm the only one.

Or am I?

SlamDance said:

Well, to be entirely fair, the fact that Marines didn't have girlfriends didn't at all occur to me for, like, the first ten years of my interaction with Games Workshop. So I can't say them not being ladies men was at all important to me at the time at the time.

That said, I didn't read (and still haven't read) Ian Watson's Space Marine, and any other comments that they were incapable of getting it up must have gone totally over my head. I mean, it is entirely possible it still wouldn't have mattered to me, but at the same time I didn't notice.

I accept that many people seem to be either okay with or think it is actively cool that ( IF!!!!!!!!! ) Marines are Asexual, but for me it takes a lot of the fun out of pretending to be a Space Marine if having no **** becomes part of the fantasy.

So I don't know. My gut tells me it would be a bad idea to make it apparent that Marines are asexual because, **** man, we are talking about teenage boys here. Even if they are the kind who play Warhammer!

But then there are no female Orks at all and no one seems to care. So. Although I don't think they emphasise what that means either.

And I think it is becoming more apparent. In Helsreach the Marines are shown to be actively uncomfortable with the extensive human attraction that occurs in the book. I mean, maybe that speaks to the nervous adolescents GW principally sells to but I don't think it is enormously cool for Marines to be schoolboys in overgrown bodies.

So not noticing may not be an option much longer.

--

But, here we see the men of Bravo Two Zero saying goodbye to their wives/families/children in the morning before going off to be SAS guys:-

If you read memoirs of Special Forces guys, they all seem to have strings of ex-wives and children by several different women.

Story Material!

Dear god Wolf what kinda ****** up adventures do you dream up where Space Marines ever have a chance to even meet a woman in social situation? Does your Space Marine go into bars and chit chat with women? While fighting off a Tyranid invasion does he take time to save a damsel in distress and fall madly in lust/love with her? Pull a Red Sonya and try to get between the legs of a Battle Sister? Do you kidnap chapter serfs to turn into love slaves for you to **** with your massively musculed 3rd leg?

Seriously I'm morbidly curious what kinda screwed up **** is running through your head? I can't think of any logical scenario where a genetically engineered living weapon could ever hook up with a "normal" 40k person in a sensible relationship.

Rawrsong said:

Well, maybe if said chapter serfs are Battle Barge / gunship crew, they spend so much time around the Marines every day (and share some of the danger the Marines face on deployment) that they tend to treat the Marines a little (maybe not much, but a little) more like regular folk than most.

And the example Wolf was citing - strings of ex-significant others wiht children to boot - doesn't read like "a sensible relationship" to me. It screams "conflict," potential and actual.

Which is the heart of Story.

I guess the problem is that that kind of conflict / story mightn't feel like Authentic 40K. if it doesn't for you, hey, that's cool.

I noticed in Fulgrim it was the normal humans getting into the sexual depravity. I noticed a distinct lack of Space Marine sexual activity. I think if it were going to be mentioned that's where it would come up don't you think?

+++++I noticed in Fulgrim it was the normal humans getting into the sexual depravity. I noticed a distinct lack of Space Marine sexual activity. I think if it were going to be mentioned that's where it would come up don't you think?+++++

)

First off, I don't think that you should take Chem-Geld's text super literally, especially when it comes to Astartes. I think a more interesting question is if you have to look into a member of the Legions, nigh immortal, transhuman, who as depicted in a lot of the literature has problems relating to mankind on a whole, being so far removed from their own origins. What kind of woman would they find attractive, surely she would have the same qualities as themselves, so we could assume some kind of transhumanism there.

Secondly the Astartes are supposed to be the knights of old transplanted into space (WH40K basically is a fantasy setting) and as such they hold to the high knightly ideals, defend the weak, purity of mind and body, abstinence. The Knights Templar weren't even allowed to wash for fear of it leading to impure thoughts and since from a Marine viewpoint everyone else is weak and in need of protection.

Simply put, she's not woman enough!

UncleArkie said:

But if you take King Arthur, he is conceived when Uther Pendragon gets Merlin to disguise him as Igraine's husband and sneaks in to her castle and spends the night with her while Uthers vassals are busy killing said husband. Arthur of course marries Guinevere, who significantly bears him no children. Guinevere promptly has an affair with Lancelot. And Arthur then sleeps with his half sister Morgause, and fathers Mordred by her (Morgause will later be killed by one of her other children when he finds her in bed with Sir Lamorak, who isn't her husband or his father). Lancelot, meanwhile, has been tricked in to sleeping with Elaine of Corbenic (who disguised herself as Guinevere to seduce him). This union results in Sir Galahad. A bit later, Elaine turns up at Arthur's court and after some convincing Lancelot has sex with her again. Guinevere finds them in bed together and tells Lancelot she never wants to see him again. This drives him nuts and he wonders about as a lunatic for a bit, until Elaine brings him the grail which brings him to his senses and for a while Elaine and Lancelot live together and raise Galahad.

Elaine then kills herself when it becomes apparent that Lancelot will never truly love her or give up his obsession with Guinevere.

Who is sleeping with whom and who is related to who is a big part of these stories.

It's been awhile since I read "The Once and Future King", and some of that is familiar, but most of it has me scratching my head if I didn't read closely enough or what your sources are. Please enlighten me, because I am genuinely interested if there is stuff I don't know.

Okay… I don't care about this thread enough to read everything that came before this post. I've gotten enough of it for a reply, and this is an incredibly stupid thread anyway. AluminiumWolf, you're freaking out all over the place like Signs does when he feels FFG is "cheating" us all, albeit still more rational and polite.

The only references in the past, current, and probably future fluff concerning Space Marines and sex, has left it utterly at one simple place. They just don't care about sex. And that's it. No comment either way as to whether they are physically capable or incapable. The stance is clever, from a business standpoint, because obviously saying they're literally castrated would turn off some people, and isn't likely to bring anyone to the game either. Likewise the idea that they're just beyond such trivial, mortal concerns, meshes well with the fact that they're basically warrior monks.

So can we give it a rest already and move on to the next stupid thread? I know it's been a while since we had one about female Space Marines (an idea I'm not even that much against. One of the unknown Primarchs was a woman, there problem solved) or how their Bolters and other weapons are so much better than everyone else's.

+++++your sources+++++

Wikipedia! :-)

It is mostly what Wikipedia says happens in Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur (although I think Elaine only actually kills herself in The Once And Future King).

But this sort of thing happens a lot! In Gawain and the Green Knight, Gawain is staying with a Knight and the dudes wife keeps trying to jump his bones. He manfully resists and gives her only a single kiss (he has an agreement with the Knight that he will pass on anything he earns while staying with him, so he later forwards the kiss). The next day she has another go and this time he gives her two kisses. Etc.

Maybe I am biased by my experiences with the Pendragon RPG which emphasises this stuff, but trying to impress Damsels and generally matters of love, marriage, children etc. are what Knights do .

--

As to Monks, Space Wolves at least are not Monks, and if nothing else I don't think Marines should have LESS sex than monks.

A swift google for monk sex scandal brings me many, many pages including

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/willheaven/100131428/downside-can-emerge-renewed-from-this-sex-abuse-scandal-if-the-monks-choose-the-right-reforms/

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-20058619.html

http://rokdrop.com/2012/05/16/jogye-order-of-buddhist-monks-in-korea-faces-sex-scandal/

http://wwrn.org/articles/13071/?&section=buddhism

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/i-was-a-tantric-sex-slave-1069859.html

+++++Following the recent scandal that exposed monks of the largest Buddhist sect in Korea for gambling while intoxicated, the whistle-blower, Venerable Seongho, reported further allegations yesterday that Jogye Order monks gambled overseas, kept mistresses, had secret wives, frequented room salons and even paid for sex.+++++

And the Imperium is the most corrupt society imaginable!

So for Marines who are SUPPOSED to be celibate (and presumably that isn't all of them) you could do stories about exposing abuse, secret love affairs or even quitting the order to run off with someone.

I mean, Jedi Knights are not supposed to form attachments either but the prequels still manage to be a love story. Even if it is a bad one.

+++++The stance is clever, from a business standpoint, because obviously saying they're literally castrated would turn off some people, and isn't likely to bring anyone to the game either.+++++

With the best will in the world, this doesn't seem as obvious as it should be.

Or you could recognize that as they are condition to Know No Fear, they have been conditioned to literally just have no interest in sexual activity, because they are practically demi-gods, for whom mortal concerns are alien and trivial. They shrug their shoulders at the fact that they are practically immortal barring violent death. Breath toxic gasses, have the strength and skill and durability to kill many times their number in ordinary men, etc…

But sex has to be a big deal to them still? Because they're somehow lesser without the need to **** every now and then? And if they don't brush their teeth three times a day, do they have to worry about their teeth turning black and falling out too?

And no, Space Wolves are hardly monk-like. But what does that really matter?

AluminiumWolf said:

Beyond writing litterally hundreds of books on the subject, touching on every aspect the Marines creation and life and not at any point displaying the marines as having sex, or a family or mentioning their children or that their fathers were marines or anything like that?

I suppose they could start putting 'Astartes. We Don't Have Sex' on the their banners but that would seem a little out of character.