There are chapters with history in the fluff of being lusty (mostly Space Wolves). I wouldn't require it and I certainly wouldn't give them the full bonus coming with Chem Geld. Space Marines are still subject to flattery and the like. And if you want to play an SM who does explore his baser impulses, that could make an interesting story. It should be something that a player could opt into, not something forced on them from the start.

I suspect people are going to be less happy about being forced in to playing a limp-dicked gelding than a functional man…

Exactly. If you opt into it with taking the Talent, fine. But being forced to is really off-putting and it's not like gamers are the most, uh, understanding subculture when it comes to being emasculated/marginalized.

AluminiumWolf said:

Really? I realize there are alot of strong feelings on both sides of this particular debate, but I ask you to take a step back from the conversation itself to look at the substance of this particular statement. You think there is some kind of 'bible' at GW with a list of commandments a la the Torah? Please let me know by popular insult if I'm the only person who thinks this is a ridiculous claim.

I propose we look instead at the idea that GW makes Warhammer 40,000 with the intent to make money. To make money from it they need to sell products related to it, such as miniatures, rule books, novels, etc. The tabletop game itself says it's recommended for ages 12 and up, but since it is a game, realistically kids younger than that will be interested. In order to maintain the 12+ rating, inclusion of sexual content would not be a viable option. If sex were to be included, they would be obligated to put all kinds of warnings and restrictions on the covers and packaging, then they could only sell it in certain sections or in certain stores (in the U.S. anyway). Then it would no longer have a reputation of being a game of little plastic men shooting each other and become more about sex.

Maybe my logic doesn't follow exactly or there may be things I overlooked, which I am open to constructive criticism, but I think it's much more likley that for the last 25 years it's been more a factor of 'let's keep the game clean, and focused on grimdark people killing each other mercilessly.' and less of 'lets get into the nitty gritty details of ordinary life'. Plus, the sex genie will never get back in the bottle, just like puberty it's a one way door. In conclusion, I think it's not a situation of where people have kicked SM sexuality around in meeting rooms and brainstorming sessions and saying they don't want to offend people by saying they are or aren't impotent or castrated or just so geeked out on steroids they can't feel anything below the tree trunk that serves as their neck. I think it's a business decision to keep the game accessible to the widest age group possible, in order to get the most money as possible.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

Lionus said:

I think there has to exist, entirely in the heads of GWs commissioning people or not, a directive that says you may not show a Marine kissing anyone. AT THE SAME TIME you are not allowed to explicitly confirm that Marines are impotent. You can sorta hint at it a bit, but never come out and say it.

As an exercise, try to get someone who has written on the Deathwatch line to comment on Marine sexuality.

--

But basically no one in 40k had sex before Ciaphas Cain, and Marines haven't caught up with the revolution yet.

AluminiumWolf said:

Incorrect, both Gaunt (in Necropolis, implied at the time, confirmed later), and the Inquisitor & Callidus assassin from the Inquistion Trilogy (blatant in at least 2 of the books in the trilogy) have sex. I'm fairly sure Necropolis is before Cain's novels start, don't quote me on it, I am 100% sure the Inquisition war trilogy was before it.

Inquisition War Trilogy also has the Imperial Fist acknowledge that the Callidus Assassin is attractive, but suppresses any desire through discipline.

William Kings space wolves in the Wolfguard are blatantly in love with their charge, the navigator (each member to their own degree

Some 40k Authors handle sexuality as a topic, some avoid it entirely. The same will be said for many 40k RPG games, some GMs will include it, others will avoid it.

On a final note, specifically to topic, at no point, in no codex is there any description of ANY of their implanted organs chemically or physically neutering them. Considering how regimented a space marine's life is, it may have never actually occurred to do this. Most space marines don't have TIME to fraternize with the opposite sex, let alone the opportunity.

Lastly, in some incredibly OLD Index Astartes bits from WD (before some wicked retconn butchery), Salamanders Chapter Marines were rotated in small numbers back to Nocturne, to have families and help run the settlements they came from.

Interestingly, I've been running with the "Marines = no working man parts" and my players have been loving it. They've got NPCs attatched to the group who are mortals with mere human motivation, and it confuses the marines. THey don't understand the motive force behind lust or desire, and they're understanding how different that makes them. The Salamander and Space Wolf in the group both resent this loss of humanity (to a degree - the Salamander is a Techmarine, but he's refusing the Rite of Clear Thought for this purpose) and try to spend as much non-combat time with humans as possible. I don't know if their motivations are to attempt to be more human or to somehow try to pretend that they are just one of the lads.

From most of the fluff I've read (especially Horus Heresy, Night Lords Trilogy, and Brothers of the Snake), the loss of humanity is a major plot point for astartes based stories. IMO, one of the simplest ways to do this is to keep the astartes non-functional. You can still seduce them - because (as mentioned earlier) seduction doesn't always revolve around sex.

(Worth mentioning - I've replaced 'Chem Geld" with the functionally identical Black Crusade Talent "Cold Hearted" - it honestly makes mre sense to me)

professor_kylan said:

I wonder what they would have picked if you gave them an option…

Because being a ******* eunuch is not something I want to deal with in my power fantasy of choice.

:0)

AluminiumWolf said:

AluminiumWolf said:

Probably the same. We've discussed the issue outside of game discussion and the vast majority of the group think it's an interesting part of the astartes character. The astartes are living weapons that are divorced from the mortals they protect. The question all astartes end up having to ask themselves is "is it worth it?". They liberate a world from xenos attackers and see a family reunited, a husband kissing his wife, children clustered around their feet. He knows that he can never have that, not just because of his vows, but because he is fundementally different. He is no longer Homo Sapiens, he is Homo Sapiens Nova - genetically superior in every way, but unable to appreciate the simple human emotions that a random mortal family experiences.

I think the difference between us is our personal interpretation of what the astartes are. This is why we'll never agree on these matters. I see the astartes as greek heroes - powerful beyond mortal man, but tragically flawed. You see them more as superheroes - power without limitation. We both hae these viewpoints because both of us think that our interpretation is the coolest. The important thing to remember is that we're both right . THat's wehy I made sure I specified that the option I'm running with with my group is working for us - because it's the sort of game we like. Neither I nor any of my group would really like the idea of astartes getting it on. It takes away from the central set of flaws that the astartes operate under, and that makes them less interesting to us.

Before I had a chance to post, I saw your latest comment. That really highlights another difference - we're not using astartes as a power fantasy My group has grown up on a lof of world of darkness games, a LOT of Exalted - we're used to power coming with a price, and that's the style of superhero we like. Being a eunuch isn't the flaw here, it's a complete detatchment from humanity - a humanity that your life, without consent, has been destroyed in order to protect.

professor_kylan said:

Well sure, but I am happier with flaws like Hubris, Pride or Arrogance not Cannot Get A Stiffy. Which is too close to being an actual flaw, rather than a non-flaw that actually makes you more awesome. like saying 'I push myself too hard!' if asked what your biggest weakness is.

AluminiumWolf, you dissapoint me. I asked you to step back from the conversation just enough to see the reasoning behind what's going on. You were so wrapped up in your opinion and what you want to be true that you quoted me on the GW bible thing, but completely ignored the crux of my argument that getting into sex is a bad business decision for a company marketing a game to kids. Normally I find your rather distinct opinions mildly amusing; like a youth on the cusp of puberty spending hours and hours in his treehouse thinking about what it must be like to be old enough to drink beer and buy porn, but it seems to have gotten to a point where you can't see the forest for the trees anymore. We all have different opinions of what Space Marines might be like if they were real, and although your vision seems to resemble bad Japanamation more than any fluff or novel or other official background info I've ever read that doesn't make it inherently less valid than mine. So I guess what I'm struggling to understand is why you are so militant about being right, and why SM's MUST be able to get it up in order to be cool. What were to happen if we were to start a "are there gay space marines" thread?

Incidentally, if you have read this far, early on in my campaign I gave my players the option of what sort of sexual status their charachters could have. Any status they wanted. The space wolf opted for nymphomaniac, which wasn't really a surprise. That guy would play a 16th century Irish monk as a womanizing drunkard. The Black Templar opted for chemical inhibition, but not castration and the Blood Angel stayed silent through the whole 20 minute conversation and refused to answer the question, saying "He's a Space Marine. That's it." Looking back and taking in this conversation makes me think that more than any bible that says 'Space Marines must this or shalt never that', it seems pretty likley that if they even ever discuss it at GW meetings, the opinions are probably split just the same as they are here on the forums and in my group.

AluminiumWolf said:

In my games I actually HAVE given them an option and the majority of the characters are treating it as a complete non-issue simply because they couldn't care less for humans, let alone women.

My personal view is based on the parts of fluff that actually DO mention at least something. There isn't much, but enough to make some conclusions:

- In Codex: Space Wolves it is explicitly mentioned that one planets population was revealed to be daemons after a drunken Space Wolf had made a pass at one of the women… So, there is no question about if Space Wolf cannot be interested in women or not. They can and are.

- In novel "Know No Fear" one of the Ultramarine characters spends a long time discussing with a female enginseer of Mechanicum and it turns out that, accoridng to the Ultramarine, the Astartes are psychologically incapable of feeling love or similar intimate feeling of kinship with humans… Which was something the Ultramarine was a bit jealous for because even the enginseer was able to feel "a rough analogy of deep affection".

Now, what I gather from this is that at hormonal level the Astartes physique is fully functional (unless the Space Wolves specifically are fed some blue pills) but at emotional and psychological level they are completely unable to feel anything even remotely similar to deep affection. After this it basically comes down to individual Astartes and their chapter habits. I would imagine more "monastic" chapters like Dark Angels actually have a vow of celibacy and chastity while other chapters might not have any rules or requirements at all, basically allowing their members to do what they feel like (Space Wolves come in mind). At least for the Ultramarine in "Know No Fear" it was basically a non-issue. He seemed to be so far apart from humans on psychological level that it was as likely for him to turned on by a girl as it was for a normal human to be turned on by a turtle. Zoophiliacs excluded.

I really don't see what the issue would be even if they were declared to be "non-functional" (though it does seem some of the older fluff suggests that they could be, but were mostly non interested, but there were some exceptions, while the newer stuff tends to suggest that they are emotionally and psychologically incapable, rather than physically so, which is kind of the position I would take). Being a Space Marine has nothing to do with sex (warp tainted, mutant Slaneeshians aside, and even then I was never convinced that it was really sexual desire they craved so much, rather than sensation for sensation's sake). It would be like declaring "Horses don't understand Monet." Basically the response should be "Yeah… so what?"

Space Marines are meant to be very separate from the rest of humanity. Sex is just a non-issue for them (not they are "castrated" or whatever). As an irrelevance to them as snooker is to me. I don't see what the problem is with this.

And I had always taken Space Marines as not being an adult power fantasy, but more the fantasy of pre-teen boys, ie get to blow **** up all the time, and never have to have anything to do with "gurls" and their "gurly pink stuff".

+++++like a youth on the cusp of puberty spending hours and hours in his treehouse thinking about what it must be like to be old enough to drink beer and buy porn+++++

That isn't far off from the kind of mindset I try to channel when pondering what I want out of 40k.

WWAYOTCOPSHaHIHTTAWIMBLTBOETDBABP want.

:-)

+++++Looking back and taking in this conversation makes me think that more than any bible that says 'Space Marines must this or shalt never that', it seems pretty likley that if they even ever discuss it at GW meetings, the opinions are probably split just the same as they are here on the forums and in my group.+++++

I think there is a big difference between choosing to play a character 'above' human concerns and having the ******* eldar players constantly making jokes about how your muscleman can't get it up.

And I don't know about you guys, but if I was an eldar player I totally would.

AluminiumWolf said:

You are EVIL, sir! (Are there rules for Eldar PCs anywhere yet?)

Anyway, thanks for answering the question about the lore very thorougly, everyone.

Getting Closer.

I actually appreciate you clearing up what it is what you want out of 40K, I thought that might be it, but wanted to be sure. That's cool if you want to play it that way, I honestly don't think it's that bad of a way to go. I still just have two things I'm trying to work out in my mind about why you feel so strongly the way you do, if you don't mind:

1. Why is it so vitally important to you that SM's are able to get erections? Is there some dynamic in your group that makes it particularly important? I have never encountered anyone before who had such a strong opinion so i'm curious.

2. Do you have some natural aversion to thinking of this aspect of the game in business terms for the Games Workshop and Fantasy Flight people? You have pretty neatly avoided addressing this every time I have advanced it, but it's at the core of why I think there is no definitive word. Sex sells everything except to kids. Parents usually have something to say about that. Whether or not the Eldar like it or even know it.

+++++1. Why is it so vitally important to you that SM's are able to get erections? Is there some dynamic in your group that makes it particularly important? I have never encountered anyone before who had such a strong opinion so i'm curious.+++++

Principally because I know just how mercilessly I would exploit it if I was a non-marine partisan.

And I don't think it is just me. I mean, the internet right?

It bothers me just enough to rant about it on the internet occasionally - I think it would be a bad idea to say 'oh yeah, Marines are totally eunuchs' and then be surprised when people proceed to take the piss.

+++++2. Do you have some natural aversion to thinking of this aspect of the game in business terms for the Games Workshop and Fantasy Flight people? You have pretty neatly avoided addressing this every time I have advanced it, but it's at the core of why I think there is no definitive word. Sex sells everything except to kids. Parents usually have something to say about that. Whether or not the Eldar like it or even know it.+++++

Oh no, I agree. To most Marine fen girls are still icky, so it doesn't matter. Not saying anything at all may be the way to go.

But I dunno. I like a spot of romance in my media. If I am going to read an endless stream of Marine novels, it might be nice to do something other than kill things every once in a while.

Ciaphas Cain shows you can do sex in 40k. Master Chief has a thing for Cortana and Marcus Fenix a thing for Anya Stroud. And Solid Snake letches after EVERYONE.

Knights are so much more interesting than monks, and even monks do romance. Cadfael had a number of flings in his youth, and still pined for Richildis. And in fact had a son before he became a monk.

But, I dunno, Knights in Pendragon have so many more story possibilites than Marines, because they care about things like Courtly Romance, impressing girls, finding a wife, raising children etc. When I was looking at converting Pendragon adventures to Deathwatch, a big problem I had was that a lot of the stories didn't work for Marines because there is this enormous hole in their motivation.

And you get Footballers WAGS or the military wives choir which would make good story fodder if Marines gave a ****. And even things like the Illiad (the background of which revolves around Helen running off with Paris and the main plot of which is Achilles getting pissed off that he didn't get his pick of the women taken as spoils in a battle) and the Odyssey (which is about Odysseus trying to get home to his wife) hinge on Boy meets Girl.

Even just stuff like 'I am a Jedi - like my father before me' Marines can't do.

I dunno. There is so much you could do if Marines weren't ******* gelded limp dicked eunuchs with zero personality and motivation.

AluminiumWolf said:

2) Ciaphas Cain is not a Space Marine. Normal humans have normal human frailties.

3) I wouldn't really say Master Chief has a thing for Cortana… at least not that way. I always saw it as him seeing her as either a mother figure, a sister figure, or even as "one of the guys". In fact I think it may be even more explicit in the Halo lore that Spartans are "non-functional" than it is about Space Marines (though that may be me misremembering that).

4) Space Marines don't do relationships. It doesn't matter whether they are capable or not. They are something seperate from humanity… and truthfully, shouldn't be the most interesting personalities. However, the idea that someone won't have any motivation just because they are uninterested in sex is… bizarre. Not everything human beings do is motivated by sex and reproduction… in fact many of the most motivated people carry out acts which are entirely counter to reproduction.

As far "anti-marine" partisans; who cares enough for that to be an issue? Those that want to debate Space Marines are unlikely to use that as an issue against them. Those that might point and laugh… well, are probably not going to be discussing 40k. A proper 40k fan laughs at the Blood Angels for being Loreal models, and Dark Angels for being emo…

I'd imagine that from a physiological standpoint, most of the bits and pieces still work. The real difference is in the hypno-indoctrination the chapters use. I figure the majority of the chapters filter that sort of thing out as a 'distraction'. Not all of them, mind you, and I'm definitely looking at you, Space Wolves…

+++++1) Space Marines are not Eunuchs… even if they are incapable of or uninterested in sex, they are not eunuchs. Eunuch has a very specific meaning.+++++

Potato potato.

Like I say, I think it is generous to expect people to draw the distinction.

+++++2) Ciaphas Cain is not a Space Marine. Normal humans have normal human frailties.+++++

Oh aye, but as the amount of sex in 40k increases from nothing to a fair bit, the sexlessness of Marines becomes more emphasised. For instance in Hellsreach, a lot of the human characters pair off and hold hands and whatnot and the fact that the Marines don't is very apparent . It's gone from sex not being an issue to sex being something that Marines don't do but everyone else does.

And I dunno. Monks had sex. Quite a lot of it. Senior monks sending directives to monasteries reminding the brothers that they were not actually supposed to keep wives was pretty common in the middle ages.

Even Catholic Priests have sex, even if it is with choir boys!

+++++3) I wouldn't really say Master Chief has a thing for Cortana… at least not that way. I always saw it as him seeing her as either a mother figure, a sister figure, or even as "one of the guys". In fact I think it may be even more explicit in the Halo lore that Spartans are "non-functional" than it is about Space Marines (though that may be me misremembering that).+++++

The treatments suppress their sex drive. But. Spartans are terrible characters as well. They have LESS personality than Marines. I don't know if you have read any Halo books but they have endless trouble getting characters with so little personality and motivation to carry a story.

At least the Chief hangs around with Cortana. That more or less is his personality.

+++++Not everything human beings do is motivated by sex and reproduction…+++++

Just most of it.

+++++As far "anti-marine" partisans; who cares enough for that to be an issue? Those that want to debate Space Marines are unlikely to use that as an issue against them. Those that might point and laugh… well, are probably not going to be discussing 40k. A proper 40k fan laughs at the Blood Angels for being Loreal models, and Dark Angels for being emo…+++++

I'd just rather not have to spend my time when I'd like to be enthusing about how awesome Marines are explaining how their being impotent actually makes them totally cool, no honest.

Or having to endure jokes like

'Yes - your Marines put up… Stiff… resistance.'

<Snigger>

Pyrus said:

After watching all the UFC last weekend there's a very good reason for a warrior race not to have external genitalia.

Face Eater said:

And yet despite the many advantages you just don't see people lining up to have them removed.

I wonder why that is?

…meanwhile at the Soft Avengers fortress monastery on Lake Flaccid…

Face Eater said:

You mean OTHER than unfortunate Ossmodula and Black Carapace jokes?

Plus, like I say, you get enough trouble with the hinted at background and people who LIKE Marines trying to wind people up!

What would it be like in an open forum with an actual codex passage!

--

I genuinely don't think you are going to get as many people wanting to pretend to be Space Marines if you make it clear their dicks are removed as part of the process.

Do I really have to say that? Is it not instantly obvious to everyone?