I stumbled across the Chem Geld trait in the main rulebook today, and the description I read seemed as if it was written for Marines; between their chemical reconditioning and warrior-monk ascetism, I figured it was a natural. Even down to the Insanity point.

Except it's not part of the Space Marine starting package.

Does this mean… a Space Marine can pull?

Or even… be pulled?!

(With apologies to those of the female persuasion.)

Well, if you think it is totally awesome to play a eunuch Space Marine, go for it.

If you would find it funny to force people who don't want to to play a eunuch Space Marine, GO AWAY!

It's not so much about awesome or funny, more that - as far as I was aware - one of the canon aspects of Space Marines is that while they appear to suffer from extreme cases of testosterone poisoning, the process that makes them what they are abolishes sexual impulses.

Is that incorrect?

Hey, if you can actually find a page reference for it…

Can't point any reference in particular out, no. It may have been something I took from reading Ian Watson's novel Space Marine many moons ago.

Incidentally, this is part 47 of a loooonnnggggg conversation, so I apologise for seeming terse.

The long and the short of it is that I don't think sexless Marines are cool, certainly not as cool as the fun to be had if they are functional.

AT THE VERY LEAST, the fact that is is never actually mentioned despite the very many words written about Marines kinda implies that they don't want to talk about it.

And, I mean, I seriously don't think GW want to come out and say Marines dicks don't work. Imagine the forum fodder!

Chem Geld would be perfect for Space Marines in my opinion. The process doesn't suggests anything external being removed (ie, Chem Geld doesn't make someone a eunuch). As far as I am aware the process is meant to use drugs to essentially destroy (or shut down) the parts of the brain which govern physical desire. While I don't think the same process is used on Marines, the mechanical effects (cannot be seduced, gain 1 Insanity point… isn't there something about charm checks being harder if being used on the character?) seem perfect for Marines. They do not have sexual impulses, and frankly, the idea that someone who has gone through the process of becoming a Marine is not unhinged enough to get 1 measly Insanity point just seems a bit daft to me.

As far as evidence that they don't have physical desires: Various of the novels have suggested that Space Marines can recognise physical beauty, just that it doesn't really engender any sort of reaction from them. As much as someone could say "I can see why people find that person attractive, but they don't really do it for me", except on a much broader sense.

Well, like I say, do you think it would be a good idea for Games Workshop to say that Space Marines dicks don't work?

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It would also be very boring. Every book you have ever read is a love story for a reason .

I view the lack of chem geld in the Space Marine starting talents as being there for much the same reason it isn't for the Ork Freebooter class in Rogue Trader: being uninterested in sex is normal for them and not something that has to be tacked on aftterwards. Space marines are described in a few novels as having appreciation for aesthetics but they either don't have sex drives, they suppress them totally or the drive is rediverted into martial pursuits.

I completely disagree with the idea of handing out Chem Geld to space marines because I find it unnecessary and they are *not* especially resistant to being charmed or befuddled (see: renegade marines). Plus, the Litany of Hate talent relies on a charm test to function. Chem Geld would mechanically make this *less* likely to work on space marines, when if anything they should be even more prone to hatred of the enemy.

I dunno. I think people have real trouble remembering that Marines are supposed to be cool, and more importantly cool to the people who buy Marines .

Decessor said:

This is how I see it as well. You don't need to put Chem Geld on something that's inherently asexual. Also, because Chem Geld makes people somewhat psychically dysfunctional (harder to get into their heads, 1 Insanity point), and Space Marines are supposed to be flawless paragons.

I'm not crazy in thinking that for the Marine fanboy on the street Marines being neutered ken dolls is not exactly going to be a selling point am I?

AluminiumWolf said:

Space Marine sexuality has never entered into any level of thought for me, or anyone I know who is a fan of 40K. I have always looked at them as so heavily modified as to be asexual, and this doesn't bother me. It speaks to their removal and separation from humanity.

Well, I think the fact that not once in twenty five years has it actually been explicitly stated that Marines are castrated kind of implies that they don't think people would be okay with it.

I've always assumed that will all the gene therapy, implants, and hormones, that space marines are probably shooting blanks so to speak. The parts are there, they might even still function, but reproduction is out of the question. Then coupled with hypno-therapy and what not and the desire is probably gone as well.

AluminiumWolf said:

I love how you constructed an argumentum ad populum out of a non-sequitur.

My take on it is that, since some Space Marines have historically been seduced by the lure of Slaanesh, they are not inherently asexual, even thought they are normally much too disciplined to display interest in sex. So, I agree with them not starting with chem-geld.

AluminiumWolf said:

I forgive you, Wolf. I probably should have searched the forum first!

And good point about the forum fodder!

AluminiumWolf said:

Point.

AluminiumWolf said:

Fair point - I guess to my mind, it seemed odd that after that long period of not dealing with the… sticker aspects of human interaction, a Space Marine roleplaying game is, even for one paragraph, addressing physical desire directly.

I probably wouldn't have even given it thought myself had I not seen that Talent right there on the page.

Actually, take that back, I kind of had when thinking about Female Space Marines, but that's a whole 'nother thread (which, believe it or not, ties into my thinking about Female Transformers).

In essence, I think there is probably a Secret Setting Bible somewhere at GW HQ that says Marines do not experience sexual desire. And there is a note in said bible that you may never, ever, ever, say this out loud.

For a variety of reasons, I think this is non-optimal. For a start, since it is effectively a secret you can never do anything with it or explore it. For a second, love and lust are MASSIVE drivers for what people do, and Marines need all the agency they can get (something for a Marine to desire that doesn't involve killing things). For a third, Ciaphas Cain showed how sex has a place even if 40k, and Dan Simmonds Illium/Olympos and Larry Niven's seminal Man of Steel Woman of Kleenex essay ( http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html ) and the movie Hancock showed there was entertainment value in the effects of a Marines enhance physique on. Stuff.

I mean, we could be doing Game of Thrones in space!

Please turn to page 20 of Codex: Space Wolves.

'The Lost Company of Svengar the Red' tells us of a Great Company of Space Wolves. They were never seen again, having fought bravely, after Svengar made 'a casual pass at one of their women'.

If that isn't sexual desire…

A few more thoughts.

Slaanesh can seduce by means other than sex. Or physically change marines so they *can* feel sexual desire.

I think the removal/usurpation of the sex drive is one of the ways that is overlooked in how space marines are that much different to their human roots. The sex drive is a massive motivator in human behaviour and a personality without it is very different.

Space wolves are a weird not quite exception. I can't recall post-change marines having actual intercourse but lots of references to passes etc. That could be a cultural thing, where space wolves feel the need to prove that they're still all men even if they don't actually feel the urge to do anything with women.

Space Wolves especially being neutered makes their whole MO more than a little bit pathetic.

Well Space Wolves are kind of an exception to the rules. They're well known as being radical alcoholics who defy authority and the dictates of the Codex Astartes. They'd probably been declared Excommunicate Traitoris if it wasn't for their unquestionable loyalty to the Emperor and be so **** good at destroying anyone including other Space Marines. Then again having a suped up Dreadnaught who has a higher kill count than entire Space Marine companies and been kicking ass since Warhammer 32k doesn't hurt either.