Hm, actually I think it is quite possible to have a somewhat undergunned cruiser as a large platform for whatever else you want to put on it. Sure, a cruiser has plenty of hard points for weapons, but as far as I am aware, a cruiser can forgo a second broadside and put a single battery in the second port and starboard slot (or even leave them empty), which would leave it with a lot of extra space or power. The difference in space and energy leaves a cruiser with something like 10 more space and energy after accounting for the bigger drive and the double shields. Some components do take more space on a cruiser, but many do not. A Dauntless would have a bit of an edge when it comes to exploration mostly due to the better radar, but eventually a bit more space and power may be more valuable.

Our group called our Ambition-Class "the most heavily armed science vessel in the 41st Millenium", and it was only half in jest .

Seems true, but I'm not sure I want the cruiser, that looks like a cruiser (read: a warship), but doesn't pack the punch, when my enemies show up, finally having accumulated the resources needed to knock over a cruiser. Appearances count for something, and if your warship isn't kitting maximum for war, it might lack the oomph needed to keep yourself on top. Cruisers are intimidating, but not as much, if their glass armaments can't deliver.

Well, the group is the one who know best what their ship is actually capable of, so in most cases they will be the one with the advantage. The whole idea is to use the cruiser as a chassis for a more versatile ship, so it is only to be expected you won´t quite have the punch of a typical cruiser. Even with normal batteries, however, you will have an advantage over most LCs. Overall, I think this route is notably better for not much points.

I am curious, has anyone houseruled SP costs and do they have some feedback for how it went?

Even with normal batteries, however, you will have an advantage over most LCs

Depends on whether you use the RAW turning rate of 45 ° or the BfG-consistent 90 ° . I have LCs turn at 90 (and transports at 45) degrees per turn, making them a little better for the price.

The utility of a light cruiser in a military-themed campaign is unquestionably low. Cruisers have nearly twice the firepower at little cost. In a trading or exploring campaign, though, the light cruiser comes into its own. It has a better space to armament ratio than the cruiser, permitting more miscellaneous components.

This. And I'll go out on a limb and say that a purely military-themed campaign is missing the point of rogue trader.

There's also challenge to consider. With a LC you can give your players an easy fight ( a small wolfpack, say), a tough one (a squadron of frigates or another LC), a really difficult, tactical one (a full cruiser) or an impossible-at-first, muster-your-forces one with a GC or larger. If the players have a full cruiser, not much is going to challenge them beyond another cruiser, and you can't really give every dynasty and pirate clan they meet that kind of power.

"YOU get a cruiser! And YOU get a cruiser! EVERYONE GETS A CRUISER!"

When did Oprah become head of the Departmento "Hand Out Ships to Everyone"?

I can see the idea of giving them a "smaller" ship, in order to maintain challenge, but it could all go out the window the moment they get a cruiser, regardless, so I might like the idea of getting it out of the way, early. Also, I'd sit down with the players, and get an idea of what they want out of the game; what they want to do, and achieve. If space battles aren't their cup of tea, and based on the views of many here RAW, it probably won't be, they probably don't need a "what do you think this thing is for" warship, and they might try something else. As for me, as a player, I can see me trying to do the future sight, "if space combat MUST be a thing, we had best just be good for it", and try to get a cruiser to start. Like I've said before, if the point of this game, in some mechanics, is to gain more PF, starting with a smaller one, seems fine, compared to starting with a bigger one, but still never being able to roll on acquiring that cruiser. Start with the biggun, earn some money, and purchase a moderate craft, with more of the "things NOT warfare" modules on it, which still seems easier than acquiring a cruiser that will be ready in their lifetime. As a GM, I'd also get them to give some intel on what form they think their existing dynasty might've taken. I've never really seen the game working as well with "you were handed a Warrant of Trade, and informed you are now a Rogue Trader!", so I'd assume they are inheriting it. In that case, I'd see what sort of interests, activities, and whatnot they think it was already involved in, and what sort of ship that means dear mommy or daddy was probably flying, which they will then inherit. Many of these probably WON'T be cruisers, so they'll have to work up from there.

but it could all go out the window the moment they get a cruiser, regardless, so I might like the idea of getting it out of the way, early.

...don't give them a cruiser until you want to? It's not like they can just acquire one.

I want to propose a hypothetical "they snagged one from defeated pirates, or a rival Rogue Trader", but I'm thinking most pirates can't maintain a cruiser, wherever they first got it, and snagging a cruiser from the Navy, or a fellow RT, is both tricky, and a terrible idea. Having said that, I was still implying something like it, however you might do it. Lots of players have discussed when their crews have contemplated raising the Light of Terra , even if it would be so hard, time-consuming, and possibly futile, but if you found a smaller ship, say a cruiser?, derelict in space, you could try to fix it up, and you'd have a cruiser, and still more easily, perhaps, than actually rolling a 65+ Acquisition test, either with the Navy, or possibly some ship yard that has one they don't want (like the Breaking Yards, or some other hellhole. I wouldn't even put it past some crew to enter the Processional of the Damned, fend off some Hollow Men, and grab a slightly debilitated cruiser hull from the Outer Sea of Space Hulks, either flying it back (not every ship is DEAD, maybe just empty of crew), or towing it back through the gate, to patch it up. Riddled with risk? Sure, but that's what makes it fun, right?

I want to propose a hypothetical "they snagged one from defeated pirates, or a rival Rogue Trader", but I'm thinking most pirates can't maintain a cruiser, wherever they first got it, and snagging a cruiser from the Navy, or a fellow RT, is both tricky, and a terrible idea. Having said that, I was still implying something like it, however you might do it. Lots of players have discussed when their crews have contemplated raising the Light of Terra , even if it would be so hard, time-consuming, and possibly futile, but if you found a smaller ship, say a cruiser?, derelict in space, you could try to fix it up, and you'd have a cruiser, and still more easily, perhaps, than actually rolling a 65+ Acquisition test, either with the Navy, or possibly some ship yard that has one they don't want (like the Breaking Yards, or some other hellhole. I wouldn't even put it past some crew to enter the Processional of the Damned, fend off some Hollow Men, and grab a slightly debilitated cruiser hull from the Outer Sea of Space Hulks, either flying it back (not every ship is DEAD, maybe just empty of crew), or towing it back through the gate, to patch it up. Riddled with risk? Sure, but that's what makes it fun, right?

Of course, refitting, repairing, and re-sanctifying a salvaged cruiser could require that the ship stay in dock for a decade or more... of course, ten years in-game isn't actually that long for a Rogue Trader game, in my experience.

Yeah, the vagaries of warp travel, stasis tech, and just the course of adventure, a decade might go pretty quick, and any of these might contribute to seemingly less time for the RT, and crew, to boot. I sort of wonder, as pointless as this wonder is, if one reason, among the many, that FFG time-stamped this stuff 300 ish years in the past was simply so that you could have time to do some of these things, and not accidentally enter the uncharted 42nd Millennium? If DH hadn't been first, I'd feel even more strongly about it, but I suppose some investigations, traipsing from world to world, sifting through data-looms, and catching perpetrators at just the critical moment might also gobble up years, effortlessly.

but if you found a smaller ship, say a cruiser?, derelict in space, you could try to fix it up, and you'd have a cruiser, and still more easily, perhaps, than actually rolling a 65+ Acquisition test

Yes, but, again, as the GM you decide what they find 'derelict in space' - if you don't want them to find a cruiser, don't say the words "you find a cruiser" and they won't find a cruiser.

Oh, sorry. I wasn't trying to argue that the GM can't arbitrate what's out there. I do feel that it is a smidge deus ex to just say "I (the GM) don't want to deal with this; I think it might be a problem, so you don't find any that aren't in the hands of other Rogue Traders. Oh, and when they have one, don't grumble,; it's easier on me with them", or something. No, if the GM HAS to, they can certainly say "you don't find any", and I can see the Breaking Yards, or similar places, not having (m)any, at any given time; any they DO have are probably not even a whole hull, or are there for a reason. The Processional? Yeah, you have to know THAT it's a place, where it is, and then survive, so I'll not harp pn that, either. While I'm not just overflowing with ideas, it does seem a bit weird that one can't come up with a better "challenge the big ship option" solution than "you can't find a big ship." I'd assume, slight challenge decrease, or not, that the cruiser SHOULD have its own challenges to face, be it finding the crew for it (needs lots of ratings), keeping its stores filled (you, and that crew, need to eat), or putting up with its slow speed, poor handling, whatever; I'm not so familiar with every rule that I know if they adequately incorporated such in, but it SHOULD be there.

Yeah, if they specifically go to somewhere like the Processional, but generally you aren't saying "you don't find one"; you are instead not saying "you do find one". You aren't being negative, you aren't excising something from the game that 'should' be there - I mean, if there's something as valuable and rare as a cruiser floating around unclaimed where everyone can see it, why the hell hasn't it been salvaged by another RT or the Imperial Navy?

I'm not suggesting any fudging if, for example, they somehow disable a cruiser in combat (no "you want to salvage it? it, uh, it blows up for no readily explainable reason" kind of thing), or that if they spend ten years combing space you deny them one just because you don't want it in your game - I'm just talking about randomly stumbling across them, which is what I took your "found... derelict in space" to mean.

You don't start every unexplored system description with a list of what isn't there, so why mention cruisers at all until you're ready for them?

Just my two penn'orth.

The cruiser has its own challenges, although you do have to pay a bit more to start with one. I am hoping to find more ways to give the LC (in particular, anything that isn´t the Dauntless) its own niche, and so far I am leaning towards a somewhat lower cost - still a fair bit more than a frigate, naturally, but a bit less than now.

Some thread necro there, but that's ok. I'm into thread necro.

I'm holding you to your word on the necro thing. I am new to the system and was looking at a few different possibilities for starter ship (knowing nothing at all about the rules) and it seems like the LC could be the standard... well.... LC if prepared properly. It is exorbitantly expensive compared to smaller ships in terms of having an easier time with the beginning wealth factor but... its a light cruiser. Its supposed to be expensive! And fast. And able to stay out in the boonies of imperial space for long periods of time.

Why yes I do have a soft spot for historical light cruisers, why do you ask?

Some thread necro there, but that's ok. I'm into thread necro.

I'm holding you to your word on the necro thing. I am new to the system and was looking at a few different possibilities for starter ship (knowing nothing at all about the rules) and it seems like the LC could be the standard... well.... LC if prepared properly. It is exorbitantly expensive compared to smaller ships in terms of having an easier time with the beginning wealth factor but... its a light cruiser. Its supposed to be expensive! And fast. And able to stay out in the boonies of imperial space for long periods of time.

Why yes I do have a soft spot for historical light cruisers, why do you ask?

Well, a fair amount of the problem is that a light cruiser doesn't actually have that much in the way of firepower on a frigate or escort, and can be outmaneuvered by one. In addition to lacking a firepower advantage, a light cruiser doesn't have that much more Armor or Hull Integrity.

Let's go with Core, the Dauntless has: -1 Speed, -5 Maneuverability, +5 Detection, +25 Hull, +1 Armor, -1 Turret, +20 Space, and costs 15 SP more relative to a Sword, with a prow mount and broadsides compared to the Sword's two dorsal batteries. With the rules as they are written, the Sword carries two macrobatteries, probably twin Sunsears by the fluff, and because Sunsears are awesome by RAW.

With "normal" components, granting no bonuses or penalties, a dual Sunsear Sword has 6 power and 3 space to spare for 42 SP.

With "normal" components, granting no bonuses or penalties, a pure(3x) Sunsear Dauntless has 12 power and 14 space to space for 58 SP.

The Dauntless has some more space, likely to be filled up with a cargo hold and lighter bay, barracks, extended supply vaults, and a munitorium, bumping it up to 65 SP, but leaving it moderately versatile.

Relative to the Lunar, the Dauntless has: +2 Speed, +5 Maneuverability, +10 Detection, -10 Hull, -1 Armor, -1 Turret, -15 space, short a broadside mount on each broadside, and effectively -1 shield, and is only 5 SP cheaper.

However ... the Sword is more maneuverable (turn 90 vs turn 45) and carries most of the combat power of the Dauntless - and has its full firepower in its full arc of firepower (fore, port, starboard), while the Dauntless can only match that firepower on its broadsides, and the Sword also has most of the resilience of the Dauntless.

The problem is that a light cruiser (in the 40k-verse) is nominally supposed to be a combat match for 3 escorts (frigates and raiders/destroyers). A single escort versus a light cruiser isn't even supposed to be a contest - the CL is supposed to have a massive margin of victory.

For that matter, in-game, as-written, a well-handled PC frigate can take an NPC cruiser, while that shouldn't even be a contest.

Plus, as written, an escort could viably launch a boarding action against a grand cruiser, and quite possibly win.

Me, I roll with a variation on Mathhammer, in addition to applying a multiplier to Hull Integrity, Crew Population, and Crew Morale for larger ships - light cruisers get doubled, cruisers/battlecruisers get tripled, grand cruisers get quadrupled, and battleships would get quintupled. And light cruisers get their turn 90.

Oh, and broadsides attack twice at their full strength and gain Storm. I've also boosted lances (+1 die of damage and Tearing, fire separately for each point of strength and no range penalties) and torpedoes (+1 die damage +1/2 their flat damage modifier).

Sure, this means that the big boys are a lot tougher to kill, but they should be. In the fluff, battles between capital ships can be (and usually are) days-long slugging matches, and the small fry stay out of the way, taking potshots with torpedoes and sometimes lances from extreme range.

These changes significantly upgrade bigger ships, but then, you shouldn't really be going after a big ship with your solo escort anyways. Although, I suppose if you're rocking a max load of virus torps, you have a chance. Maybe. Still wouldn't recommend it.

Anyways, light cruisers (and heavier) are relatively weak by RAW, as while they can freely use lances, lances really aren't that good compared to macrocannons, and they aren't all that much sturdier than frigates, raiders, and even transports.

Any discussion of "good" vs. "bad" ship types first depends on defining what rules will be used in your game. If you poke around in the forum you're going to find an awful lot of broken bits in the rules, even more vagaries, and even more undefined. You have to decide on how to fix them. If it's your's and your players' first game, you might not have to fix them at all, instead playing till you find the problems yourself. If you've read around, though, and already see problems ahead and decide to fix them beforehand, then there's still the questions of which rules and how.

Any of the ships can be a good starter ship. Really. Any of them. The Rogue Trader and his/her wonder-buddies turn all ships into monsters...unless you also fix NPCs.

Well, I can really only go with RAW since I haven't started in any group for this game yet. The more than likely GM works nights but is available weekends and until we get started has let me take his milk crate of RT, DH, and WH minis books home to blissfully read and dream of all things WH40k. (BK and Into the Storm are quite cool)

If anything I have read many folks talk about the light cruiser having a 90 degree turn in another ruleset. If that's effected I'd be more than happy. Heck even if it doesn't I'll still be happy. I don't know how often one gets into space combat vs off world hijinx vs etc, etc, etc. When he told me to fart around and see what kind of ship I could come up with within the rules, I made the following. My biggest concerns aren't turning radius or firepower or even total cargo capacity. Its going out on an exploratory mission or something similar, getting lost and not having enough fuel or enough food and/or water to make it back alive. And demons. Don't forget the demons. Do I have enough extended supply slots to live through an adventure in this thing? (Again, I have no idea how long or short or accurate this whole travelling in the warp thing is...)

Emden

Hull: Dauntless Class Light Cruiser
Dimensions: 4.5 km long, 0.5 km abeam at fins approx.
Mass: 20 megatonnes approx.
Crew: 65000 crew, approx.
Accel: 4.3 gravities max sustainable acceleration

Laid low by raiders and left for dead, the remaining crew of the Dresden, a centuries old patrol boat, laid in a course to the nearest friendly system... but never reported in. Written off as lost, the Dresden drifted. She ship was discovered as a possible minerals bonanza in a long range scan of a previously uninhabited world unseen by either imperial or zeno eyes. The Caughain Conglomerate, with its waning resources, pulled the wreck from its long slumber and effected repairs. Caughain Conglomerate's latest son, Warrant of Trade in hand, rechristened the long lost light cruiser as the Emden.

Speed: 8 Manoeuvrability: +15
Detection: +20 Hull Integrity: 59
Armour: 19 Turret Rating: 1
Space: 60 (used 55) SP cost: 70
Weapon Capacity: Star-flare Lance (Prow), Mars Pattern Macrocannon Broadside x2 (1 Port, 1 Starboard)
Modified Jovian Pattern Class 3 Drive (Power Provided: 60)(used 54)
Warp Engine
Gellar Field
Warpsbane Hull
Bridge of Antiquity
Voidsman Quarters
Vitae Pattern Life Sustainer
Mark–201.b Auger Array
Void Shield Single array
Extended Supply Vaults
Compartmentalized Cargo Hold

Ship background: Planet-Bound for a Millennia

Rogue Trader taking the far right hand path to gain additional Archeotech and necessary SP

(edited spelling)

Looks pretty good to me. Some utility out the gate, and room to grow.

If you wanted to absolutely maximize your time "at sea" you could also add an arbouretum, but in general terms the hold and extended supply vaults should be plenty.

I might suggest some more stuff to add to your endeavor bonuses (maybe an auto-temple now and a trophy room later).

To add to what Javcs said.

In terms of firepower specifically Light cruisers have a fair advantage over Frigates and Raiders.

They can mount lances in their Dorsal slots, meaning they can fire the lances in 3 directions, where Frigates and Raiders who are able to mount lances can only do so in a forward firing prow slot.

They can also mount broadsides, which frigates and raiders can't. Being able to get more hits (higher strength) is very important via vanilla rules set.

It's only in a head on facing that the light cruiser will not be superior.

EDIT: Side note, I think your detection should be 25, since the base for an endeavor is 20 and you have the 201.b Auger, and the manoeuvrability 20 due to the bridge