Breath vs Shadowcloak

By poobaloo, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

How do players play this? A Hell Hound breathing upon a hero standing on a tree:

Breath: Attacks with the Breath ability use the Breath template to determine which spaces they affect. [...] and all figures under the template are affected by the attack.

Shadowcloak: A figure with the Shadowcloak ability is only affected by attacks made by adjacent figures.

And similarly, Blast... which affects "every space within X spaces of the target space".

As I understand it, a figure with Shadowcloak is affected by an attack if both of the following conditions are met:

(1) The figure must be in a position where it would be affected if it did not have Shadowcloak.
(2) The figure must be adjacent to the attacking figure.

If you're using a Blast attack, you may want to target it 2-3 spaces away from yourself so that the blast encompasses the Shadowcloaked target but not yourself.

I'm not quite sure how else that could work, but if you have an alternative theory, I'd be happy to hear it.

poobaloo said:

How do players play this? A Hell Hound breathing upon a hero standing on a tree:

Breath: Attacks with the Breath ability use the Breath template to determine which spaces they affect. [...] and all figures under the template are affected by the attack.

Shadowcloak: A figure with the Shadowcloak ability is only affected by attacks made by adjacent figures.

And similarly, Blast... which affects "every space within X spaces of the target space".

Shadowcloak trumps Blast/Breath. But if the Blasting/Breathing figure is adjacent to the Shadowcloaked figure then Shadowcloak has no effect.

All figures under the template/within X spaces are affected unless they have an ability that says they can not be affected.

Well I'd say that shadowcloak is negated in such matters.

Breath: Any range is ignored, which should mean that the figure is basicly adjacent.

Blast: All figures inside the blast area are affected, which is why blast can clear out a whole room, where the monsters are hiding. You can hit a shadowcloaked hero/monster, by blasting the space right beside it. Shadowcloak only saids that they can only be targeted if they are adjacent, but that only counts on normal attacks.

For Shadowcloak the attack must originate from one space away, so unless you are standing in a space next to the Hero with Blast, Blast will not hit the target with Shadowcloak. This was clarified in the FAQ.

Q: How does Shadowcloak interact with Blast? Is the origin of the attack considered to be the attacker or the space from which the Blast originates?
A: The origin of the attack is still considered to be the attacker. If a hero with a Blast attack wishes to hit a Shadowcloaked monster without hitting himself, he should move adjacent to the monster and target the attack in a (potentially empty) square such that the monster, and not the hero, is hit.

Same thing for Breathe, unless the attack originates from an adjacent square it doesn't affect a monster with Shadowcloak.

From the official FAQ:

Q: How does Shadowcloak interact with Blast? Is the origin of the attack considered to be the attacker or the space from which the Blast originates?
A: The origin of the attack is still considered to be the attacker. If a hero with a Blast attack wishes to hit a Shadowcloaked monster without hitting himself, he should move adjacent to the monster and target the attack in a (potentially empty) square such that the monster, and not the hero, is hit.

I find it quite implausible that Breath would work differently, but I'll go through the noted arguments just in case:

Maruk the Nomad said:

Breath: Any range is ignored, which should mean that the figure is basicly adjacent.

No, the ability says that rolled range is ignored and that the attack only misses on a miss result. It says nothing about changing or ignoring the range at which the attack operates, and even if it did, adjacency is not defined in terms of distance--in fact, pretty much the other way around.

Maruk the Nomad said:

All figures inside the ... area are affected

First of all, Blast doesn't actually say this, it just says that more spaces are affected. Breath actually does say that all figures under the template are affected, but this really just looks like sloppy wording:

"Attacks with the Breath ability use the Breath template to determine which spaces they affect . The template is placed against one side of the attacking figure (see diagram) and all figures underneath the template (friendly and enemy) are affected by the attack ." (JitD p. 22, emphasis added)

This looks like they started to say that the Breath ability just changes which spaces are affected, but then someone just had to elaborate about what that would imply (which is understandable, because the basic attack resolution rules suck and certainly don't tell you). But the wording doesn't suggest that this is supposed to make the attack affect anyone that would normally be immune. Would you expect Breath to override Ghost or Stealth?

Additionally, the rules for Breath were written before Shadowcloak existed, so in the event of a conflict, Shadowcloak should take precedence, because the person writing the rules for Shadowcloak had the opportunity to make a specific exception for Breath (and apparently chose not to), while the reverse is not true.

Okay, I admit that I was wrong on that one, on the ruling part hehe.

I just saw it in a more realistic perspectiv, even though I will play with the right rules of course. If a cone of fire is coming towards you, you wouldn't be saved by bashing your cloak around, nor if a granate went off right next to you would you still be blown away. Thats all I am saying, but I can't say anything against how the game was designed, just thought it was more fair for both heroes and overlord.

As for the stealth part, even if you where invisible wouldn't you still be affected by an explosion right next to you?? Ghost however is a bit difficult, because it kinda makes you insubstancial or something, so don't know about that one.

But hey this is what houserules are for right.

You're using thematic logic: making up a picture in your head of how the abililty works, and then seeing if that picture works for weird situations, rather than conforming your picture to the rules.

Stealth doesn't make sense as being unseen in the first place; your opponents still know your position precisely enough that they can avoid bumping into you when they're walking right past you. Ghost doesn't make sense as anything, as far as I can tell; it defeats melee attacks from an adjacent space, including melee attacks that could be made from farther away, but not melee attacks that are made from farther away or non-melee attacks made from up close. And why Ice Wyrms have it is anyone's guess.

"Bashing your cloak around" seems unlikely to save you from any attack, blast or otherwise. Try thinking of it as some sort of magical veil that bends incoming attacks around you, but if the attack starts too close, there isn't time to bend it enough to save you. Or whatever else you like. Just don't think that because you have one picture in your head, the rules have to change to accommodate that, rather than the other way around.