Königslothar is up for viewing on Dust-models' "coming soon" page. 3 versions…
Normal preprimed.
Op. Zverograd Premium Prepainted.
Op. Cerberus Premium prepainted.
Edit to add link, duh!
Königslothar
Yeah, I'm diggin' it.
I wonder how long it will take to integrate into Warfare. I am anxious to see stats/rules for Otto & Sigrid's Nachtjadger.
BDub said:
Yeah, I'm diggin' it.
I wonder how long it will take to integrate into Warfare. I am anxious to see stats/rules for Otto & Sigrid's Nachtjadger.
Funny thing is, I just broke down and ordered the premium Lothar last week. I'm kinda wishing I'd spent that money on another SSU model, as I'm pretty sure I'll be more likely to put the Königslothar on the table as my arty piece, lol. Well, at least I'll have options, 2 Hans', Hans & Lothar, Königslothar, etc.
I'm definitely excited for it.
**** they're cool..
I'm one of the few people that doesn't really like the look of the "spider" lothar. I already have the regular heavy walker kit though so I don't particularly need another heavy walker right now anyway. But it is good to see that it is available now for the people who are excited about it. I know a lot of people were really jazzed when they first saw the picture of it. On the plus side, Dust-models is really quick with how fast they ship stuff. I was blown away at how fast I got my dice pack shipped from China… they got here faster than some models that were supposedly shipped out to me the same day from the States ( I am Canadian). I do still want the American landing craft though and will likely break down and just order it and make up my own warfare stats for it which should not be hard as the weapon stats are already available. But then I have to redo my table to add water or a shoreline section or something. I wanted to redo my table at some point anyway though… then I could play some really cool beach landing scenarios. Maybe do a D-Day scenario with Axis having lots of walker support covering the beach or something like that.
Unfortunatly, I do not believe we will see any support for dust-models in warfare since it is made and created by FFG and not dust games. I am still hopefull that maybe we will see a fury of Ivan in tactics, but I am not holding my breath.
Since everything is really determined by the weapon that is firing and not some other factor (like this guy's lascannon is soo much better than that guy's lascannon for instance) it shouldn't be hard to transfer over any of the stuff from tactics or dust models. The armour type has been consistent between tactics and warfare so a vehicle 4 in tactics should be a vehicle 4 in warfare, for example. Then since all the units in the game just have different combinations of the same 5 or 6 guns anyway, just use the warfare stat line for some other model that uses that gun. All the dust-models kits come with tactics cards anyway.
There are some rather unique units on the dust-models site like salvage walkers and stuff but if you want to use those then just modify the tactics rules for them factoring in the differences between tactics and warfare. It shouldn't really be too hard to do for any of the units. The fury of Ivan uses 152 mm guns so just give them the warfare stats for the 155 mm howitzer instead and its good enough in terms of the game I would think.
Most of us do not play every single game in a tournament so having a few units here and there that are not tournament legal shouldn't be much of an issue.
AP value is the hard part.
Determining the points value is the toughest part… agreed. The rule of thumb that I learned from creating custom units in Apocalypse is to come up with a points costs and then make it a bit higher. Most things will have something very similar that does have a defined points cost to it and so you start there. When you determine what the point cost would be for something similar, or something that acts similar or even has a similar role, you add a few points on to that. Always overcost units. By doing this you limit the possibility of your opponent being upset that you just invented some killer unit out of your head to beat them with.
Here's an example for the Fury of Ivan since it was brought up. It looks very similar to a vehicle 4 axis medium walker. While it is listed as a vehicle 5, we don't have the vehicle 5 walker stats out for axis yet as the flamm-luthor isn't released yet (you can re-evaluate it then based off the vehicle 5 when one releases)… so I suggest just making it a vehicle 4 for now and base it off existing axis vehicle 4 stats since it is essentially a salvaged axis medium walker. If used as a vehicle 4 it is very similar to a Ludwig (and even looks like one). So you start at the Ludwig"s 40 points. Take the stats from a similar sized gun. The 152 mm guns on the Ivan could have the same stats as the 155 mm howitzer. Now compare to the Ludwig. The howitzer stats are slightly better than the Ludwig's stats but only by a point here or there and are the same against certain types.So add on another 5 points to bring you to 45 points. Since an allied Steel Rain costs 45, this is not a bad jump off point. There is another walker priced the same with a somewhat similar role while keeping with the tradition that axis walkers are cheaper. It is also fitting since the SSU specialty is aircraft and I can see there walker tech being slightly inferior even when they salvage from the superior axis. If you take a broken top of the line product and fix it with crappy parts then it will not be as good as the original though it will look the same so there is the difference represented in increased points. Or you could justify it by saying that it would cost the Russians more to produce the tech than the Germans since the Germans had the head start with the tech and are more tech saavy… however you want to justify it costing more than any other axis walker. This is important because now you are going to increase the cost again. If you came up with a cost of 45 points for example, now add on another 5 to bring it to 50 points.
Now at 50 points, it is the most expensive vehicle 4 walker in the game and so it would be hard for your opponent to say that you are trying to rip him off by inventing your own super-powered unit just so you can win. And you can play with that super cool model that you have wanted to play with in game… win, win. And since it is in an army full of fast moving aircraft and guys tossing flaming bottles of vodka (although we don't have any stats for them yet either *cough* cough*) having some long range anti-tank punch will probably go a long way in your army and make you not feel as though you wasted all these points on an overcosted unit.
That is how I would approach it anyway.
Where it gets a little more difficult is for something like what I want to buy… the allied landing craft. Based on the tactics stat card, it has just 2 50 cals, but is a vehicle 4 with 10 hit points… weird enough right there. So its a combination of a medium walker and a heavy walker in many ways with crappier guns than both. It has a carry capacity of 8 and a vehicle 4 carry capacity which is superior to the carry capacity of the heavy walker pushing the points cost closer to that of a heavy walker despite its crappier guns. But while medium walkers have jump, decent movement and air drop ability, heavies have decent movement and air drop abilities (the fireball for instance has tremendous air drop potential with its short ranged guns, carry capacity and ability to soak up gobs of firepower), the landing craft must confine itself to water. On any table played this would be a very small area that the landing craft would be confined to and its movement could easily be anticipated (this is a land based game and no one would put all the models on a board with a tiny little island surrounded by tons of water as it wouldn't make sense… this is not dystopian wars). So now, because of movement restrictions and the lack of any real long range guns, the points cost that was creeping into heavy walker territory is pushed back towards medium walker territory. So if you keep it between the 45 for a steel rain and the 85 for the fireball (using the most expensive medium walker and least expensive heavy walker) and split the difference you are at 65 points. While I would normally add on a few points at this final stage, considering its weak armament and movement restrictions I would likely keep it at the 65 points. Now it is very expensive for what it gives you so the opponent should not have cause to complain. And if you want to use it soo badly, then you pay the piper for it. In some games with battlefiels with little to no water, you will choose not to use it at all (on some battlefields you simply couldn't use it). But if you had a battlefield with a strong shoreline element to it or a beach landing scenario it might be worth every penny of its cost.
At least, that is how I would approach a unit like that.
Strombole, everything you say is logical and workable. However, I'm going to play devils advocate here to reinforce my point about AP costing being difficult.
I'll start by saying I think it's difficult because game companies themselves rarely get it right, and almost always have a hiccup or two.
Okay, for my example, I'll stick with Fury of Ivan…
It's based off a German Armor 5, Wound 6 chassis, which as you say isn't out yet. However we do have the DT values for those (51 for Flamm-Werfer, 58 for Wotan), and we can extrapolate off them as well, comparing other DT to DW values. For example, the Königsluther is 95 in DT, 100 in DW. The Herman is 26 in DT (where that laserkanone can keep rolling hits forever), 20 in DW (only one reroll), and the Ludwig is 40 in both, so around 5 or less AP difference is the ballpark I'd start with. Once we have the point cost of the Wotan and the Flamm-Werfer, we'll have a better jumping off point, but for now we'll start with DT values. Most Armor 3, Wound 3 Walkers are 20-25 AP. Most Armor 4, Wound 4 Walkers are 30-40 AP. the heavies are 85-100 AP, and Fury of Ivan has to end up inbetween those two as a good place to be, which the 51-58 of the Axis walkers in DT fit. I speculate the Flamm-Werfer will be either 50, or 55 AP in DW, and the Wotan should be 60 with the up armored AR version being 65. However, laser-units are over-costed a tad (strictly IMO here) in DW, so my speculation is the Wotans will be 65 and 70, respectively. Since Fury of Ivan has a long-range weapon, I'm guessing it'll be closer to the Wotan in price-point than the Flamm-Luther. Now, look at FoI's weapon stats in DT compared to the Königsluther's! KL is only better vs Armor 1-2, and KL costs 100 AP in DW. With that weapon statline, I'd say Fury of Ivan has to be at the top end of the Armor 5, 6 Wound Walkers. I'd put it closer to 70-75 points, just for the weapon.
It is however, a "Rare Unit" Walker, so you can only ever field one if I guess correctly on that SA, which might knock 5 points off. Although, there is another just like it called Red Cossack so I'm not sure I'd knock any off.
Final analysis, if I put it in play, anything under 65 AP and I'd feel I was cheating my opponent, who'd have to spend 95-100 AP for the same firepower, albeit in a more survivable package. I'd probably play it at 70-75 and feel we were good, depending on how AT-heavy my opponents list was. If they have lots of ways to kill Armor 5 Walkers, I'd go 70, if they don't, I'd go 75 or even 80.
Either way, I'm waiting until Op. Zverograd stats for the Wotan arrive before deciding for sure. Fun exercise though.
Shadow4ce said:
Final analysis, if I put it in play, anything under 65 AP and I'd feel I was cheating my opponent, who'd have to spend 95-100 AP for the same firepower, albeit in a more survivable package. I'd probably play it at 70-75 and feel we were good, depending on how AT-heavy my opponents list was. If they have lots of ways to kill Armor 5 Walkers, I'd go 70, if they don't, I'd go 75 or even 80.
In many ways you proved my point for me. You appraised it at around the 65 point range but then said you would play it at 70-80 points in game… as I said, take what you feel is the realistic point cost for the unit and then add more points to it
I didn't have any of the vehicle 5 tactics stats which is why I tried to relate it to being a vehicle 4 as it was the only reference I had. Your appraisal for a vehicle 5 set up and the reasons why sounded quite good to me. If I was playing against you with Axis and I was using a 60-65 point Wotan vehicle 5 model and you wanted to use a Fury of Ivan with the same exact armour and wound capacity as mine for 10-15 points more, I would allow it all day long with as smile on my face regardless of the fact that your weapons are a bit better than mine. Then I would add on a sniper unit and upgrade my battle grenadiers for the extra 15 points and rub my hands saying, "Muahh ha ha ha."
Whenever bringing unofficial models to the table, just overprice them and you are happy because you can use it and I am happy because you are essentially ripping yourself off in order to use it.
I don't feel as though you were playing devil's advocate at all… I thought your post complimented mine
