Characters with 0 str.

By DerBarchen, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

I searched the FAQ and couldn't find anything on this topic for some reason and with all the burn I've been facing questions like this come up more and more.

Can a str 0 character defend? If they can, would that chalange count as unopposed? What about cards that must participate in chalanges to use their effects, eg. renown, can they participate in chalanges even if theyre at str 0?

DerBarchen said:

I searched the FAQ and couldn't find anything on this topic for some reason and with all the burn I've been facing questions like this come up more and more.

Can a str 0 character defend? If they can, would that chalange count as unopposed? What about cards that must participate in chalanges to use their effects, eg. renown, can they participate in chalanges even if theyre at str 0?

STR 0 characters can participate in challenges normally. The contribute their keywords and abilities as any other characters; Stealth, Deadly and Renown work normally.

However, you can't win a challenge if your total STR is 0 at challenge resolution. If both players have STR 0 at challenge resolution, nobody wins the challenge. The defender would have to kill a character for Deadly if applicable, but Renown, Vigilant or Vengeful wouldn't work (since nobody won the challenge) and you couldn't trigger any "After you win/lose a challenge" type effects. Claim wouldn't happen either, of course.

Ratatoskr said:

However, you can't win a challenge if your total STR is 0 at challenge resolution. If both players have STR 0 at challenge resolution, nobody wins the challenge. The defender would have to kill a character for Deadly if applicable, but Renown, Vigilant or Vengeful wouldn't work (since nobody won the challenge) and you couldn't trigger any "After you win/lose a challenge" type effects. Claim wouldn't happen either, of course.

In order to win or oppose a challenge you must have both a participating character and a total challenge STR of 1 or greater. So while there are no rules preventing a character with 0-STR from participating in a challenge, it won't do you much good - unless he has a stellar ability or you have some way of bumping the STR.

ktom said:

Not only can you not win a challenge if your total challenge STR is 0 (attack or defense), but if you are the defender, you cannot oppose a challenge if your total challenge STR is 0, either.

Right. That's one part of the original question I missed.

Just to add a question on this thread; if someone declares a character with strength as an attacker in a challenge and it was somehow reduced to 0 before it was resolved (ie; The Only Game that Matters), is the challenge null and does the attacking character stay knelt?

Some1new said:

Just to add a question on this thread; if someone declares a character with strength as an attacker in a challenge and it was somehow reduced to 0 before it was resolved (ie; The Only Game that Matters), is the challenge null and does the attacking character stay knelt?

Okay, there are several answers to this:

If all attacking characters are reduced to 0 strength before defenders are declared, then the defender of the challenge is not obligated to do so. He can simply declare no defenders, and the challenge fizzles because a challenge at 0 attacking STR cannot win.

If all attacking characters are reduced to 0 strength after defenders are declared but before resolution, then the defender wins (assuming they still have any strength in the challenge. If everyone is reduced to 0, then there is no winner and no loser.)

Characters don't stand unless something tells them to. Even a character removed from a challenge doesn't stand unless the removing effect says so, and being reduced to 0 strength does not remove a character from the challenge.

Some1new said:

Just to add a question on this thread; if someone declares a character with strength as an attacker in a challenge and it was somehow reduced to 0 before it was resolved (ie; The Only Game that Matters), is the challenge null and does the attacking character stay knelt?

As for whether the challenge is "null" when the only attacker's STR is reduced to 0, it depends on what you mean by "null."

- The challenge is "null" in that unless the attacker can bring the character's STR (or total challenge STR) back to at least 1, he cannot win, no matter whether his opponent defends against the challenge or not.

- The challenge is not "null" in that it still happened (so the attacker cannot declare another challenge of that same type) and it still resolves (so the defender could win it if they have a challenge STR of at least 1).

So if you mean "attacker can't win," then yes, the challenge is null. But if you mean "challenge didn't happen or is undone," then no, the challenge is not null. You don't go backwards in this game. You cannot "undo" a challenge after it has started. You can make it unsuccessful, but that's not really the same thing.

Awesome, thanks guys. I knew ktom would break down my choice of words eventually, and yes, I meant null in that "the attacker cannot win" and I assumed that the challenge cannot be undone but thanks again!

Also remember that a challenge is only interrupted when there are no characters participating in it at all. As long as there are still characters, the action windows continue until resolution, no matter the STR on each side.

Does a challenge in which one, 0 strength character goes unopposed do they still claim one for unopposed power ?

Does it depends on wether the character started the challenge at at least one strength or more and this was then reduced or can they even initiate a challenge as 0 strength ?

SerArthurDayne said:

Does a challenge in which one, 0 strength character goes unopposed do they still claim one for unopposed power ?

So, if at resolution, there is just 1 attacker with 0 STR, there will be no claiming of unopposed power because no one wins the challenge.

SerArthurDayne said:

Does it depends on wether the character started the challenge at at least one strength or more and this was then reduced or can they even initiate a challenge as 0 strength ?

So just to be crystal about this.. Assuming i am being power challenged by a Str 1 char with stealth. He stealthes my only char that is applicable for defending leaving me without the ability to declare defenders. I play an event that lowers his Strength by 1 (for example Forever burning - http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/GoTCards.html/_/core-set/forever-burning-core ). So this means no one lost and no one won - or am i wrong?

This is correct. No one wins or loses the challenge (assuming the attacker doesn't use an effect to raise the attacker's STR again).

Would it be too late for the attacker to play an event (besides Paper Shield) after the defender declares no defenders but plays an event?

Some1new said:

Would it be too late for the attacker to play an event (besides Paper Shield) after the defender declares no defenders but plays an event?

In general, the "anatomy of a challenge" is as follows:

  1. Starting with the first player (not the attacking/active player), players use "Any Phase" and/or "Challenges" actions
  2. Active player declares challenges/kneels attackers
  3. Starting with the first player (not the attacking/active player), players use "Any Phase" and/or "Challenges" actions
  4. Active player chooses stealth targets (if any) / defending player kneels defenders (if any)
  5. Starting with the first player (not the attacking/active player), players use "Any Phase" and/or "Challenges" actions
  6. Challenge is resolved (count STR/determine winner, settle claim, award unopposed power, award renown power)

So, your question is specifically about #5. Since players take turns using actions, if the defender plays an event, the attacker will have an opportunity to play an even of his own once the defender's event has resolved. So in that sense, it is not too late (assuming the resolution of the defender's event doesn't make it impossible for the attacker to meet the play restrictions for the event they want to play). So, for example, if the defender uses an event to bring your attacker's STR down to 0 (without killing it), you will have a chance to raise its STR before the challenge resolves.

However, once the defender plays an event, it is too late for the attacker to do anything (other than cancel the event or save from it) before it resolves. So, for example, if the defender use an event to bring your attacker's STR down to 0 and kill it, you will not have a chance to raise its STR (unless you are both saving and raising the STR at the same time - see Risen from the Sea) before the attacker dies.

ktom said:

Some1new said:

Would it be too late for the attacker to play an event (besides Paper Shield) after the defender declares no defenders but plays an event?

Hmm… kinda need a little more context in order to answer this specifically for your situation. What are you , and your opponent, trying to do?

In general, the "anatomy of a challenge" is as follows:

  1. Starting with the first player (not the attacking/active player), players use "Any Phase" and/or "Challenges" actions
  2. Active player declares challenges/kneels attackers
  3. Starting with the first player (not the attacking/active player), players use "Any Phase" and/or "Challenges" actions
  4. Active player chooses stealth targets (if any) / defending player kneels defenders (if any)
  5. Starting with the first player (not the attacking/active player), players use "Any Phase" and/or "Challenges" actions
  6. Challenge is resolved (count STR/determine winner, settle claim, award unopposed power, award renown power)

So, your question is specifically about #5. Since players take turns using actions, if the defender plays an event, the attacker will have an opportunity to play an even of his own once the defender's event has resolved. So in that sense, it is not too late (assuming the resolution of the defender's event doesn't make it impossible for the attacker to meet the play restrictions for the event they want to play). So, for example, if the defender uses an event to bring your attacker's STR down to 0 (without killing it), you will have a chance to raise its STR before the challenge resolves.

However, once the defender plays an event, it is too late for the attacker to do anything (other than cancel the event or save from it) before it resolves. So, for example, if the defender use an event to bring your attacker's STR down to 0 and kill it, you will not have a chance to raise its STR (unless you are both saving and raising the STR at the same time - see Risen from the Sea) before the attacker dies.

You sir, have made my life infinitely easier in conveying the anatomy of the challenge to my friends that I play with. That said, you have also clarified several hazy areas in terms of event playing and burning and what to do against it; if there is anything to do at all. Your knowledge of this game is vast and awesome and I state the redundant.

Thanks you a lot!