Da RULES are Here …

By any2cards, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

Posted at

Bindlespin said:

Not trying to be mean, but I don't think that Antistone's reading of the rules is very accurate. And, it is causing a lot of unnecessary confusion that careful reading can fix. So here is my take on what the rules actually say, take it or leave it:

  1. Players do decide their turn order before the round starts. If they can't agree they go clockwise from left of the Overlord.
  2. Stand up, roll two red dice to determine recovery, replace your token with your figure in the nearest empty space , and flip your activation card because you are done.
  3. You can only target spaces with figures in LOS.
  4. Melee means hand to hand combat, with or without a weapon. That is why it is used to differentiate between hand to hand and ranged combat.
  5. This is a small mistake; clearly, they meant the black bordered edge of a tile blocks line of sight.
  6. what?
  7. A miss is a miss. if it is a miss all other results are ignored. it is a ranged miss if after all possible jiggering with surges you still lack the range to hit your target.
  8. Nice try, but this is not what the rules say at all.
  9. How many reasons are there to interrupt movement when there are only two actions and one of them is movement?
  10. You can't attack spaces without figures so why care if you have line of sight to an adjacent figureless space from inside a pit. In fact, the only action you can perform while in a pit is to get out of the pit.
  11. This is an invented problem that is not in the rules anywhere.
  12. The lava pit says nearest non-lava space, not an adjacent non-lava space. So put the hero in the nearest non-lava space without a monster.

Thanks Bindlespin for this post. After reading the rules I can't fathom for the love of anything sane how we managed to get to this point in this discussion. The rules are clear to me and the minimal confusion in the rules are easily clarified.

I'm not one who likes to piss people off with over analysing the rules, the commas, the "and", the "or" and the "if" when playing. We always managed to find a quick patch when we stumbled upon a dilemma and quicly resumed our game. We always have fun despite irregularities and confusions in rules.

Thanks again for posting something coherent and clear, it's refreshing.

Posted at

thanks. i had to edit a little bit after i re-read antistone's number 12.

Posted at

SolennelBern said:

Bindlespin said:

Not trying to be mean, but I don't think that Antistone's reading of the rules is very accurate. And, it is causing a lot of unnecessary confusion that careful reading can fix. So here is my take on what the rules actually say, take it or leave it:

  1. Players do decide their turn order before the round starts. If they can't agree they go clockwise from left of the Overlord.
  2. Stand up, roll two red dice to determine recovery, replace your token with your figure in the nearest empty space , and flip your activation card because you are done.
  3. You can only target spaces with figures in LOS.
  4. Melee means hand to hand combat, with or without a weapon. That is why it is used to differentiate between hand to hand and ranged combat.
  5. This is a small mistake; clearly, they meant the black bordered edge of a tile blocks line of sight.
  6. what?
  7. A miss is a miss. if it is a miss all other results are ignored. it is a ranged miss if after all possible jiggering with surges you still lack the range to hit your target.
  8. Nice try, but this is not what the rules say at all.
  9. How many reasons are there to interrupt movement when there are only two actions and one of them is movement?
  10. You can't attack spaces without figures so why care if you have line of sight to an adjacent figureless space from inside a pit. In fact, the only action you can perform while in a pit is to get out of the pit.
  11. This is an invented problem that is not in the rules anywhere.
  12. The lava pit says nearest non-lava space, not an adjacent non-lava space. So put the hero in the nearest non-lava space without a monster.

Thanks Bindlespin for this post. After reading the rules I can't fathom for the love of anything sane how we managed to get to this point in this discussion. The rules are clear to me and the minimal confusion in the rules are easily clarified.

I'm not one who likes to piss people off with over analysing the rules, the commas, the "and", the "or" and the "if" when playing. We always managed to find a quick patch when we stumbled upon a dilemma and quicly resumed our game. We always have fun despite irregularities and confusions in rules.

Thanks again for posting something coherent and clear, it's refreshing.

It is fine list Bindlespin have made. It is close to the way I would say the game work. So if the gamegroup agre or you SolennelBern think is fine for you. Then go for it. Nothing stoping you. I like to play by rules that are "correct". I also enjoy a good argue about it. Hope is ok with you SolennelBern.

I will not go true Bindlespin 12 point. I have already made my arguement for Antistone.

So here is just af few things: 1. (it would slow my gamegroup down, if the had to choise the order of turns for each hero at the start of the round. To make the right tactic, you have to think true all scenario of missing and OL interup, and then choise the order). It works much more fluently if you just pick the next hero to act.

9. could be quickshot, Rage then you have 4 interrupt. 1. edidition A Manticore could move 8 hex insted of 4. (of course I don't know if quickshot or Rage is in 2. edition

12. The point is, that you get kill when you wake up in lava and end up in a non-lava space (because of the lavarule), but then it is the OL turn and he move a new monster on your new location and forcing you to wake up in a lava space once again. You could make a loop out of that.

To end this. Just as annoying you think we "rules-lawyer" are. Just as annoyed do we "rules-lawyer" get when the argument is 8.Nice try, but this is not what the rules say at all, 11.This is an invented problem that is not in the rules anywhere. You have made no argument just said you think you understand the rules better. (the isue on 11 was also a isue in 1. edition. That need a FAQ to clear it!)

Hope there is room for everybody in here.

Posted at

I believe the rules for the use of surges were clarified in one of the previews. For example, if a weapon card lists a surge followed by +1 damage, you are allowed to spend one and only one surge to gain that effect once . If the weapon card lists another surge ability followed, for example, by a +1 range, you may spend a second surge on the other effect. Therefore, this weapon card allows you to spend one and only one surge on +1 damage, and one and only one surge for +1 range, for a total of two surges spent. Each effect may only be enacted once, and then that particular surge effect is essentially "tapped" for the turn. They are intentionally capping the use of surge abilities (per item or listed ability) to one and only one, in an effort to balance things. It does; however, indicate that if you have, say for example, multiple items or abilities, each with the same surge effect, you may spend one surge on each of these, until each is tapped. For one weapon card, or ability, however, each surge effect is "tapped" after you spend one surge on it.

Posted at

SolennelBern said:

Bindlespin said:

I don't know Danish, but in English (and even in Chinese) commas in this situation are coordinating unless you use "either" or "or" with them to let the reader know that they are not.

Exactly…so don't see the point of posts asking if the comma means "and", "or", "if", "what", "then", "maybe", "so" or "be"…47 minutes sigh…

What's the point of asking? To have an answer. Not everyone is so literate as others. I am no English speaking native but I think I have the right to post a question regarding something I am interested. Thanks for your kind responses by the way.

Posted at

Jrescan said:

SolennelBern said:

Bindlespin said:

I don't know Danish, but in English (and even in Chinese) commas in this situation are coordinating unless you use "either" or "or" with them to let the reader know that they are not.

Exactly…so don't see the point of posts asking if the comma means "and", "or", "if", "what", "then", "maybe", "so" or "be"…47 minutes sigh…

What's the point of asking? To have an answer. Not everyone is so literate as others. I am no English speaking native but I think I have the right to post a question regarding something I am interested. Thanks for your kind responses by the way.

Yeah I understand that I maybe have been a bit harsh or impatient and my sincere apologies, it was not my intention…well I was and still am a bit irritated by some of the comments posted, since firstly the game is not even released and secondly lots of them are just confusing and might repel some newcomers in the boardgame world.

Anyways, forums are there to ask questions and discuss topics AND to let annoying people like me post their discontent at some comments. Goes both ways.

No hard feelings! :)

Posted at

Fiendcleaver said:

Therefore, this weapon card allows you to spend one and only one surge on +1 damage, and one and only one surge for +1 range, for a total of two surges spent.

Except that it's not "S: +1 Damage, S: +1 Range." The +1 damage and +1 range are triggered by the SAME surge.

Posted at

@thiesmagle: i edited my post just for number 12 almost immediately to answer the infinite loop problem. there is no infinite loop problem for the following reasons:

  1. if you die in lava it doesn't matter where the overlords monsters are because you only have to place the hero in the nearest non-lava tile. if in the the weird event the overlord has managed to completely surround the lava terrain with monsters you would put the hero behind the wall of monsters because adjacency to the lava or to where the hero died is not a restriction at all. might be weird but not a mechanical problem here.
  2. what antistone is actually suggesting is that there may be a problem if the overlord knocks out a hero who is standing next to lava terrain then moves all his monsters in the nearest tiles to where the hero was knocked out so that when the player stands up the nearest empty space is a lava tile from which he can't move away from. a fiendish move which would certainly get you punched in the face and never get invited back, but clever.
  3. two solutions: a) you can reasonably rule that a space filled with molten rock that will sear the flesh off of anything in it is not an empty space and thus does not fulfill the requirement of being the nearest empty space. b) you can be a **** and rule that the hero wakes up in lava and then next next turn he wakes up in the nearest empty non-lava space because of point one above. Still no loop. Dying in the lava ends the dying in the lava.
  4. we can imagine a scenario in which we forget about lava completely. a completley surrounded hero is knocked out. the OL moves a monster onto the hero token and moves another monster into the gap so that we now have a solid nine square block of monsters. where do we put the hero? no biggie right. we just put him outside the block. all i am adding to this is: "in a space without lava" which you can ignore. but there is no loop. can't say this enough. no loop, no loop, no loop. by which i mean both no loop and no loop and no loop, and no loop or no loop or no loop.

No one is against asking questions or discussing ones understanding of the rules, but most of the things i addressed were not posed as questions but as facts many of which i felt had no relation to what was written in any rulebook that I have seen so far.

Posted at

Bindlespin said:

3. …. b) you can be a **** and rule that the hero wakes up in lava and then next next turn he wakes up in the nearest empty non-lava space because of point one above. Still no loop. Dying in the lava ends the dying in the lava.

It seems you misunderstand.

  1. Hero is knocked out.
  2. Overlord positions monsters on top of the hero token, and all empty spaces that are closer than, or equally close to, the nearest lava space.
  3. On the hero's turn, the hero must stand up and place himself in the nearest empty space, which is lava.
  4. After that, the hero's turn ends . He's on lava, so he's knocked out again, and places his hero token in the nearest empty non-lava space.
  5. Since the hero has taken his turn, the overlord takes another turn, and repositions his monsters on top of the hero's NEW position (the hero is currently knocked out, and so does not block movement).
  6. On the hero's turn, he's still dead, so he must stand up again. If the closest empty space is lava, he has to go into the lava again. Go to #3.

Being knocked out on lava does cause you to leave the lava, BUT you are still knocked out when you leave, and so you still need to stand up (again) on your next turn, and you're still right next to the lava. The loop isn't that you stay in the lava forever, it's that every time you get out, the monsters can (presumably) reposition so that you're forced back in again.

And "I'll punch you in the face if you do that" is a childish non-solution. Being fiendish is the overlord's job , mature players don't punch each other over a board game, and well-designed board games don't make them want to . The fact that you're even joking about it is basically an admission that the rule is broken.

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Is the lava space really an emty space?

Posted at

Endevor said:

Is the lava space really an emty space?

Page 9: "An empty space is defined as a space that contains no figures and that blocks neither line of sight nor movement."

Lava doesn't block movement or line of sight, so as long as there are no figures in it, it's "empty."

Posted at

Ok, see your point to number 12 finally. How come you couldn't figure out one through eleven? in any case the fix is simple. Rule that a space with lava is not an empty space. already said this. making a joke about a **** reading of a rule does not mean that a game is broken. it just means you are a …major rules lawyer intent on bending the wording of things until no one is having any fun. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Posted at

So, let me see if I've got all this straight:

  • You agree that the situation I have described is completely legal
  • You also agree that it is problematic enough to warrant a "fix"
  • And further suggest that it would result in "no one having any fun"

But:

  • You do not acknowledge that any fault for this lies in the actual rules that allow the situation
  • You view me as an evil rules lawyer bent on ruining the game for everyone else
  • And I am "bending the wording of things", even though no one has yet suggested any possible reading of the rules under which this particular tactic would not be legal

Also:

  • Your central objection was based entirely on a misunderstanding
  • But you weren't specific enough for me to even figure that out until your third try writing about it
  • And you wonder why I'm not responding to your other discussion points

Posted at

Blimey, got a bit frosty in here… Lighten up chaps, yeesh.

It seems that the lava point is theoretically true, but until we've seen the map layouts with lava on them, and seen the volume of creatures needed for such a broken mess to happen, this may well be a moot point, who knows.

Gotta say though, for an overlord to pull such a move, you'd have to label him a bit of a ****. Just saying.

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Antistone when you have the time. Please look at my comments on your 12 point (page 4). Like to hear your opinion on them.

Posted at

Bindlespin said:

@thiesmagle: i edited my post just for number 12 almost immediately to answer the infinite loop problem. there is no infinite loop problem for the following reasons:

  1. if you die in lava it doesn't matter where the overlords monsters are because you only have to place the hero in the nearest non-lava tile. if in the the weird event the overlord has managed to completely surround the lava terrain with monsters you would put the hero behind the wall of monsters because adjacency to the lava or to where the hero died is not a restriction at all. might be weird but not a mechanical problem here.
  2. what antistone is actually suggesting is that there may be a problem if the overlord knocks out a hero who is standing next to lava terrain then moves all his monsters in the nearest tiles to where the hero was knocked out so that when the player stands up the nearest empty space is a lava tile from which he can't move away from. a fiendish move which would certainly get you punched in the face and never get invited back, but clever.
  3. two solutions: a) you can reasonably rule that a space filled with molten rock that will sear the flesh off of anything in it is not an empty space and thus does not fulfill the requirement of being the nearest empty space. b) you can be a **** and rule that the hero wakes up in lava and then next next turn he wakes up in the nearest empty non-lava space because of point one above. Still no loop. Dying in the lava ends the dying in the lava.
  4. we can imagine a scenario in which we forget about lava completely. a completley surrounded hero is knocked out. the OL moves a monster onto the hero token and moves another monster into the gap so that we now have a solid nine square block of monsters. where do we put the hero? no biggie right. we just put him outside the block. all i am adding to this is: "in a space without lava" which you can ignore. but there is no loop. can't say this enough. no loop, no loop, no loop. by which i mean both no loop and no loop and no loop, and no loop or no loop or no loop.

No one is against asking questions or discussing ones understanding of the rules, but most of the things i addressed were not posed as questions but as facts many of which i felt had no relation to what was written in any rulebook that I have seen so far.

Antistone beat me by that. But he have a point on the other 11 points as well.

Posted at

Sausageman said:

Blimey, got a bit frosty in here… Lighten up chaps, yeesh.

It seems that the lava point is theoretically true, but until we've seen the map layouts with lava on them, and seen the volume of creatures needed for such a broken mess to happen, this may well be a moot point, who knows.

Gotta say though, for an overlord to pull such a move, you'd have to label him a bit of a ****. Just saying.

This. And I'll lighten up, I said what I felt needed to be said but I am done.

Posted at

Of course if the Overlord is using monsters to keep a hero in the lava, that means he's not using those monsters to try to stop whatever the rest of the heroes are up to.

Posted at

skunkstrype said:

Of course if the Overlord is using monsters to keep a hero in the lava, that means he's not using those monsters to try to stop whatever the rest of the heroes are up to.

Thankfully someone else spoke on this point.

Trying to catch 1… 1! hero in a theoretical infinite loop is pointless and leaves the rest of the team off to do what ever they need to finish the mission.

So fine, the OL has a grudge against player X. Player X stumbles in to the lava or what have you and the OL mobs him to attempt to keep him in the lava. While those monsters are positioning to keep him there, the other 1-3 heroes are off finishing the mission leaving the OL to lose out on his bonus for finishing the mission.

This scenario seems highly unlikely. The benefits for the OL to finish the mission seem to weight out the potential [grudge] he/she may have with this player/hero.

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What's cool about all this though is that we're all waiting for this game and want it to be the best it can, so lots of positiveness mixed with confusion…could be the best feeling there is lengua.gif

Posted at

Confusion - Yes

Positiveness - Not so much. This thread has degraded into bickering and being just plain ugly for some time now and it gets hard to read.

I just ignore the long-winded comments and remind myself that in two weeks time, I get to demo the Retailer Preview Event gran_risa.gif

Posted at

Coldmoonrising said:

…and remind myself that in two weeks time, I get to demo the Retailer Preview Event gran_risa.gif

Lucky bastard!!!!! :)

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When I saw my buddies store get picked for up here in NY, the feeling was like winning the lottery!

Posted at

I really dont see the problem with lava. I've read the rules, but am not looking at them directly now.

so hero gets knocked out. lets say he has three squares of lava adjacent to him and lava spreads away from him in those directions 3 squares.

OverLord moves monster onto of hero and a few other monsters to cover adjacent open spaces without lava.

Hero stands up placing his figure in the NEAREST EMPTY space WITHOUT LAVA…..simple. In fact, I think the rules even state this? If no,t then I agree that a clarification that the re-spawn space have NO LAVA be added, but this is how I took it from the beginning.

does not matter if the overload has 100 monsters in various spaces and lava covers 100 spaces, the hero wakes up in whatever space is nearest without a figure or obstacle in it and without lava in it. potentially that could be 10+ spaces away from the space the hero died in, so what….even if he ends up on the entrance space..them's the breaks.

Only arguement that could be made here is what if EVERY space in the level is covered by an obstacle, figure or lava…Highly unlikely, but then you would have an issue.

Posted at

The problem is, the rules don't state non-lava space. Just empty. So technically, Antistone's scenario could happen. However, others have pointed out something as well. Without knowing the terrain, we can only speculate that to cover all those spaces it would take a lot of the overlord's monsters (or one Large monster, who knows). That means there are fewer monsters to deal with the other heroes, who could either continue their objective, or… free the trapped hero. Honestly even the way Antistone describes it, I don't necessarily see it as broken, or even that insidious, but this is only speculation without seeing the terrain and how balanced the heroes and overlord interaction will be without the lava trick.

On another note, before things got "tense" in here, I don't think Antistone was trying to kill the mood in here. I'm actually thankful there are people out there who look at these technicalities. That is how we get erratas and FAQs, from people doing their homework. So all the flaming directed towards him is a little unwarranted if you ask me.

Overall, lots of cool things in this new edition, and I can't wait to be able to get my hands on it!

EDIT: and also, the scenario Antistone was describing is if you get knocked out by lava, you move your token to the non-lava empty space, true. But monsters can occupy that space of yours, forcing you back into the lava if played right.