jjeagle said:

im flattered haha- though you seem to have an excellent grasp of tolkien lore anyways, besides i much prefer being proved wrong and finding out new things about middle earth - it keeps it fresh!

Interesting debate you've got here going. I really like the aspect of Istari's instruction by the Valar. I also like the passage when Olorin (Gandalf) claims that he fears Sauron and then Varda (I believe it is her) tells him that's why he's the one to face him well. Interesting also how Cirdan immediately recognizes Gandalf's potential - and gives him the Ring. There's much to debate on this topic but I feel it wouldn't quite fit here and now.

But one more point: it's also interesting to see the pattern of Aule's "failures", despite him being good and true. The creation of the Dwarves, for instance; and both Sauron and Saruman come from his teaching.

The common factor being: the search for knowledge and "technological" mastery is dangerous. The Noldor were also the Elves closest to Aule (I think), and they are the Elves who "fell from grace", largely for similar reasons.

perhaps tolkien made this as a metaphor for early 20th century europe and all its probelms?

Yes, probably my favourite quote of the LotR is "He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom," by Gandalf to Saruman, a classic. Hope I got it just about right.

richsabre said:

It's long been speculated about; particularly that he wrote in response to the technological advances of Nazi Germany (compare their twisted concept of Ubermensch and biological expirementation with both Sauron's and Suraman's creation of Orcs/Uruks via genetic manipulation).

Tolkien denied being that direct, but it's very hard not to draw comparisons….

Important thing to note is that his work is application as opposed to allegory. Thus nothing is direct but may easily become timeless (at least in our history) because he deals with such topics.