Yes, the "es" was intentional. We all know that the next Expansion is going to be Hobbit Saga and with it comes 5 heroes (1 for each sphere + Bilbo). Currently we have 7 Tactics heroes and 6 heroes in Spirit, Leadership and Lore. I for one would not be surprised to see FFG replace 1 set of player cards with 3 heroes. Meaning that Shadow and Flame AP would contain heroes for Leadership, Lore and Spirit. Giving us a total of 7 heroes for each sphere.

FFG has thrown plenty of curve balls throughout this cycle when it came to the heroes they released ie. a 2nd copy of Aragorn and Glorfindel, putting out a 2nd tactics hero before giving us a spirit hero. (Plus for those of you that play AGoT LCG we just recieved 3 plot cards in the same pack instead just the normal one.) Nothing is set in stone to say the least.

Now this is all speculation and I won't count on seeing 3 heroes in SaF but I just have this feeling FFG has one more curve ball to send our way in the Dwarrowdelf cycle. As for the hero (or heroes) that will show up, who knows? I thought it was going to be Glorfindel in the last AP and surpise surpise he skipped head to FoS.

interesting idea- this is my first lcg so ive no idea how likely ffg is to do something like this…………being honest id rather have the 3 player cards, some really decent ones though, it would just feel a little strange getting 3 heros in one pack

rich

Im under the impression we will be fighting a Balrog so we could use all the help we can get! haha. But Seriously, would I be crazy to think that we might see Elrond as a hero in the next AP. I feel like we are going to get another Leadership character.

suppose theres no reason we cant- if we can see glorfindel we can see elrond….would love that

I believe we only get one hero but I will be more than happy if we get more. If we only get one, I agree it shall be Leadership but I have no idea who. Silvan is screaming for it but I have a hunch we might see one more Dwarf as we got none in the cycle.

I wouldn't be happy seeing Elrond as anything but Lore (although I acknowledge his spirited mind, leadership skills and achievements as a warrior also). And I would much prefer him being an Ally.

lleimmoen said:

although i believe thranduil wasnt technically silvan, i think he will end up being that in the cards….so perhaps him?

We're getting a bunch of dwarfs in Over hill under hill - I hope we don't get another dwarf from this cycle or the next cycle. (Since we'll get a bunch more dwarfs again in Hobbit 2).

I also don't think we'll see more than 1 hero in a pack - Heroes make for interesting varriation but we could get no more heroes and still get a lot of play out of new adventure cards.

Since over hill and under hill will be giving us more heroes I also don't see any reason why they'd give us 4 heroes in one pack (the hero slot + the 3 neutral cards turned into 3 heroes).

I meant only 3 heroes. The Balrog would replace the "Hero" Slot". Details ..Details…

As I said elsewhere I had been expecting Thranduil for the Return to Mirkwood. Perhaps now is his time, Silvan really need some trait boost.

As per the Silvan / Noldor traits, it may be hard to place some characters into these two categories but the game probably calls for simplification. Although they do trait some of the enemies both Orc and Goblin and it works quite well there (despite not making much sense as Tolkien clearly said those are synonymous).

Can't wait to see the new cycle. It is due in september if they release shadow and flame in july and Hobbit 1 in august… New expansion in september and new adventure pack in october… Wouhou !

Then heroes would be equally reparted in spheres before the new cycle. Assuming we get a lore hero in S&F (Elrond like other guesses ?) 1 per sphere in Hobbit 1 and 2 hero in new expansion (leadership & tactics).

Which leads me directly to my final point : Leadership and tactics heroes means Gondor/Rohan to me ! Wouhou again !!

lleimmoen said:

If I recall aright, there are broadly three categories of Elves still living in Middle-earth by the time of TLOTR (there are more in the Silmarillion): Noldor, Sindar and Silvan. The game seems to have collapsed the Sindar into the Silvan category. Sindar elves would include Celeborn, Thranduil (both Sindar rulers of a Silvan people), and therefore presumably also his son Legolas. This is from memory so I may have erred.

On this note, it's not quite right thematically that Light of Valinor can go on Silvan Elves - this should be reserved for Noldor, who had dwelt in the Blessed Realm in the First Age (whereas Sindar and Silvan elves had not).

I think Celeborn, Galadriel + Elrond in SaF ahah !

jjeagle said:

I know. What I meant was the problems with those who are torn, like Elrond. And also Cirdan is of the Teleri.

Now when I saw the Light of Valinor, I thought the same thing: why Silvan? But maybe it may represent their longing, the call of the sea as Legolas for instance heard it (although I might be stretching it a bit here).

You are right that Legolas is a Sindar (Grey elf).

Personally I think FF should have made Key word Elf: (Type) and then they could have kept all 3 in the game by having some words target Key word Elf: any and some on Elf: Type.

That would also be neater than having cards that work on Noldor or Silvan.

lleimmoen said:

Cirdan is Sindarin, I think (Sindar = Teleri who did not travel to Valinor).

I was also going by the flavour text on Light of Valinor, which links the power of the card to the powers possessed by those who have actually dwelt in the Blessed Realm (i.e. not Silvan or Sindar elves).

jjeagle said:

Indeed. I had to look at the charts again. And I think they did well to sort of extend Silvan over Sindar, I see the difference from the description but it is just a nuance I feel; especially for the game purposes.

Really strange now that I think about the card again (Light of Valinor), if Elrond's Counsel only works for Noldor, this certainly should as well. And thematically it is also hard to see it as a unique card, and thus hard to attach to someone else but Glorfindel (unless he's not among your heroes), still a much more universally applicable card than the Sword.

lleimmoen said:

By my reckoning, there are only two named characters from TLOTR who definitely had seen the "light of Valinor" - Glorfindel and Galadriel. There certainly were others for instance in Elrond's retinue, perhaps including such as Gildor and Erestor, but this we don't know for certain.

the istari also has seen the undying lands as maiar

True, I was thinking in terms of Elves. The Istari don't have full recollection of their previous existence in Valinor though, I don't think.

is that true? i wasnt aware of that……… do you have a reference to it i can find?

What I had in mind is from Unfinished Tales ("The Istari") - "For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off…"

This idea is also, I think, implicit in what Gandalf the White says after he meets Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli - "I learned much that I had forgotten" etc.

good catch…..but i wonder to what extent- i mean saruman had his mastery of craft from being servant of aule, gandalf wisdom from manwe and radagast his herb and creature lore from (sorry forgot who….) so i think they kept some things, but i see your point here

richsabre said:

There is also a passage that states that the process of "clothing them in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" also carried with it the "dimming of their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh."

The way I read it is that the Istari are still obviously beings of great power and, as you say, retain some of their specific Maiar attributes, but they are not as fully powerful as an uncloaked Maia would be - and this is the point: their mission is not to confront power with power in the struggle against Sauron.

There is plenty of room for maneouvre of interpretation here though, as the sections in Unfinished Tales do not necessarily represent Tolkien's finalised and fully-worked-out ideas.

i have not actually read the istari chapter all the way through yet in UT, so i certainly will as ive never really considered this before, but yeah - the more i thnk about it the more it makes sense

richsabre said:

In fairness, I just reread all of UT for the first time in many many years, having been inspired by your Tolkienology series!