Kshatriya said:

JonnyStorm said:

Well Inquisitors of Ordo Malleus when not hunting daemons are supposed to act as something like an internal affairs agency for the Inquisitions. The Malleus Remit gives them the extra judicial authority to crack down on anybody. Space Marine, High Lord of Terra, the Inquisitorial Representative, and anyone else short of the Emperor himself are subject to the wrath of the Ordo Malleus.

Cite?

Pretty positive I read it in the DH Daemon Hunter book or one of the codexes, If you trust wikis, wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Malleus#.T-d0L_U6ii8

Lokan said:

Inquisitors have an Emperors Permission For Everything. They actually HAVE a permission, straight from the Emperor himself, to do whatever they **** well please. Up to, and including, allying with xenos, using xenos relics and whatnot. Although some Inquisitorial factions have been decreed Traitoris Extremis by other Inquisitors for being "too radical" its comparatively rare. Hell, even Deathwatch itself uses xenos relics (EMP grenades for example) and Grey Knights are at times actually decked from head to toe in xenos weapons…

So basically your players don't actually have much of a case to put forward. Which means that if they try to take it up with their Deathwatch superiors they will be expressly forbidden in harming the Inquisitor unless new, radical proof is brought forth. They CAN find an extremist Inquisitor and try to haggle a permission from him, but would be likely to get into trouble with Deathwatch superiors in any case. They also CAN simply go ahead themselves and assassinate the Inquisitor, but then they better not get caught unless they are willing to end the campaign in last stand firefight where they all die, be executed or start playing Black Crusade.

I just came into this one. I've been over the whole thread, but I'd like to go back to the OP:

Lokan said:

Lokan, my thinking is, burn that bridge when you and your group come to it.

You've got heaps of 40K fans on this forum who can debate (and have been debating) whether or not canon 40K would allow your Deathwatch players to kill your Inquisitor NPC and the kinds of things that would happen afterward.

I say this: You've been playing your campaign out so far. Presumably, your players have had the chance to get to know this troublesome Inquisitor pretty well. They've found out about his resources. His friends. His own enemies. The things he's been trying to achieve in the Reach; his successes and failures.

Look at it from two perspectives.

1. If the players bump him off, who's going to try and get even with them? Who will be incensed that they had the temerity to assassinate not just one of the Emperor's most valued agents, but also an ally (and even friend)? Who's going to say, "Dudes, thank you for bumping that jerk off! I owe you several!" (and what will they do if / when the PCs come to them saying "About those favours you said you owe us…")?
2. How is his sudden absence from the galaxy going to change things? What plans did he have in motion that will now continue on like runaway trains until they derail? What was he fighting to stop that will now continue unchallenged? In other words, what will make the payers, once they discover it, go "Maybe killing that Inquisitor wasn't such a good idea…"?

Do it that way and your players won't feel like you're clubbing them over the head with world lore that they mightn't give too much of a stuff about anyway. They'll feel like the consequences to their actions arose organically out of the world you've all created together.

(And what does killing an Inquisitor mean to the character who pulls the trigger / swings the axe? Something? Everything? Nothing? Will he have regrets? Believe himself damned? Righteous? See it as the best of a bad bunch of options? Will he not even care? What will that say about that character to not just his player, but also the group?)

I guess, in the end, what I'm saying is, don't worry about whether 40K lore lets Deathwatch Marines kill Inquisitors; think about how your Deathwatch marines killing your Inquisitor will make your game more entertaining for all of you.

And again, don't worry about trying to think about it now. Think about it when the players do decide to bump the Inquisitor off, after they've had more chances to get to know him. Odds on you'll have already given yourself the answers you need - and if you haven't, just ask your players (and yourself) what will make the game more interesting for all of you.

Another quick thought: You don't yet know how clever your players are going to try and be about offing the Inquisitor. There seems to bean assumption that they're going to try and lawfully execute him in front of all. They might decide to engineer circumstances so that he has to go with them on a mission so that they can come back saying, "He gave his life bravely for all."

Which makes for an interesting plot for later: What if someone finds / discovers proof that they actually executed him, that fateful day on Planet X?

From a strategic and political standpoint:
I think killing the inquisitor would be extremely dangerous for the characters, they are in the middle of a Crusade.
Killing an inquisitor or any ally for that matter is treasonous.
The inquisition and the space marines can't afford to be at war so the blame will shift to the characters 100%.

They are space marines and their chapters expect the highest honour and glory. Killing an inquisitor, even a radical one would blemish the honour of the chapter, even if they agree with the death of the inquisitor (unofficially).

The best case scenario is that their collective chapters would cast them out, leaving them with option of becoming a black shield and going on only the most dangerous missions (read suicide missions). If they would somehow live through these missions they might be able to redeem themselves.

My conclusion: Killing the inquisitor should have dire consequences and the characters should be tried for treason

it's equally likely that blame will be shifted to the Inquisitor, for the exact same reason.

Unholy_Ravager said:

Depends on the whats better for the war effort, and the greater good. While yea, Space Marines are valuable, but a lot of the Inquisitions power is invested in their reputation. They need to be thought of by the general public as untouchable and incorruptible. The murder of an Inquisitor without serious repercussions would damage their image, set a bad precedence, and shift the balance of power. At the end of the day, if the Inquisition chose to crack down on individual Space Marines without the full backing of their Watch Captain, or support for their chapters, the SM's are most likely the ones who are going to get ****** in the end.

The follow up, is going to be political and the players aren't going to that involved really. Regardless of weather the inquisitor is blamed or not it seems that there's a good chance that the Marines Deathwatch career is over. They might be too valuable to put down but they can be quitely shipped back to their chapters, the Deathwatch basically works for one arm of the Inquisition and would may be pressured if they didn't take a dim view of it anyway.

Kshatriya said:

Neither of these are correct.

Two titles exist in the 40k canon that are highly confusing. "Lord Inquisitor" and "Inquisitor Lord." The former has additional authority and often will head an Ordo in a sector or sub-sector, such as Lord Inquisitor Rorken in the Eisenhorn Omnibus, who heads the Ordo Xenos Helican. The latter is an honorary title.

The High Lords of Terra do have the Inquisition as part of their ranks, listed as the "Inquisitorial Representative." It is not a fixed person and varies depending on who the Inquisition decides to send, but they are most certainly part of the High Lords.

Stupid word order. Though I don't think that's quite correct anyway:

"Inquisitor Lord - Also known as Lord Inquisitors or High Inquisitors, Inquisitor Lords exist to help maintain the integrity of the organisation, and to watch over and guide its members. The title is a recognition of an Inquisitor's power and influence rather than an absolute rank, and is more a formalisation of a position enjoyed by the Inquisitor rather than an actual promotion. Promotion to the ranks of Inquisitor Lord is by invitation only; an Inquisitor must be nominated by an existing Lord and have his nomination approved by two others. It is an honour that is only extended to those that have proven their courage, ability, loyalty and integrity numerous times. Although the rank of Inquisitor Lord in itself brings no temporal authority, it is likely that such a respected and influential Inquisitor will have some measure of control over resources within the Inquisition or his Ordo and his control of those resources will give him some measure of authority over Inquisitors who wish to use them. For example a Lord Inquisitor may oversee the activities of all Inquisitors operating in the region covered by a regional Conclave; or he may orchestrate and monitor their activities of Inquisitors who are part of an Ordo or Cabal."

However, that there is an Inquisitorial Representative does not mean that the Inquisition is subject to being told what to do by the High Lords. The High Lords are still subject to Inquisitorial jurisdiction and can be investigated and purged. In practice it won't happen unless there's another Goge Vandire or Drakan Vangorich, in all likelihood.

"As a completely autonomous Imperial organisation beyond the power of the Adeptus Terra, the Inquisition is immensely powerful. As the Inquisition's duties involve the scrutiny and policing of the other organisations of the Imperium, the Inquisition itself is answerable to no higher power except the Emperor. No one, except the Emperor himself, is beyond the scrutiny of the Inquisition. This power is officially known as the Inquisitorial Remit or Inquisitorial Mandate. With the exception of the Ministorum (which, in any case is still under outside Imperial restrictions), the Inquisition is the only organisation of Imperial government that is completely autonomous. Unlike other Imperial organisations, it is not a branch of the massive Adeptus Terra, but a self-contained organisation answerable only to itself . . . Not even a High Lord of Terra may refuse the order of an Inquisitor without good reason."

These quotes are from Lexicanum and are themselves cited to books and official sources on that wiki.

I've never heard of a distinction between the two word orders. I'm certain that the likes of Rorken got to their position and acquired their title by the consent of their peers, not by a higher appointment.

I think there has been a trend lately of reducing Inquisitoral Authority slightly.

Unholy_Ravager said:

Doesn't really matter. Deathwatch serves as the military branch of the Ordos Xenos. So all members of Deathwatch ultimately work for the Inquisition. If a Kill-team rocks the boat and pisses off the Inquisition they're done at Deathwatch unless they can get a good deal of support from their chapter brothers.

Well, like I say, if you think Inquisitors are way more awesome than Space Marines… Why are we playing Space Marines and not Inquisitors?

--

Anyway, they retconned it to make the Deathwatch an equal status partner to the Inquisition. Largely for this reason.

AluminiumWolf said:

I do play Inquisitors, it's called Dark Heresy. More to the point, this is an military game, and there is no army of Inquisitors. They use Deathwatch, Greyknights and the Sisters of Battle to be their ******* and be an army for them.

Rawrsong said:

Check out chapter 11 in the core book. The background has been changed so that while the Deathwatch is 'sometimes referred to as its Chapter Militant', the Ordo Xenos and Deathwatch are closer to being allied organisations than master and servant. It makes for a far more interesting dynamic.

Rawrsong said:

Ah well, this is the Space Marine forum. Dark Heresy is over here:-

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_temas.asp?efid=70&efcid=3

Decessor said:

Everyone knows that's just a lie that the Ordos Xenos told Deathwatch to make them more compliant tools. Can't have the servants getting uppity and thinking they don't matter. While if Deathwatch went on a rampage against Ordos Xenos, them alone really won't cause all that much damage before they were put done like rabid dogs in the big picture.

Riiiiiiiiiiight. I'm talking about official changes made by FFG with GW's consent. Describing OOC suicide runs deflects from the point. Especially since the Inquistion couldn't survive the wrath of 1,000 chapters seeking blood for their brothers in such a scenario.

If you want to put the players in their place and remind them their PCs are totally someones ***** I heartily recommend following this advice.

Decessor said:

The other chapters of Space Marines would likely go after Deathwatch to restore their honor if they went renegade without good cause besides the Inquisition were being meanies.

-Trolololo

Besides the chapters who hate the Inquisition or who'd back the Deathwatch from honour debts…

In any case, it's a ridiculous proposition. The Ordo Xenos and Deathwatch might both lose a few members over time in "incidents" in joint operations but neither wants to rock the boat sufficiently for it to go any further than that. The particulars of whether a killteam can get away with offing an inquisitor (or vice versa) boil down to the circumstances and who has how much clout and the will to use it.

AluminiumWolf said:

That's kinda the point of being a Space Marine, isn't it? Phenomenal power, itty-bitty living space.

If you want unrestricted freedom to kick ass and take names along with your genetic superiority, there's this really nice game called Black Crusade which lets you play Chaos Space Marines. There, you're nobody's *****… unless someone manages to make you his.

In DW, though, like every other member of the Imperium of Man, you belong in a certain place and Emprah forbid you try to break away from the structure. Your position as a blessed Angel of Death is quite high, but don't let it get into your head too much.

Unless you're a Chapter Master. These guys are Peers of the Imperium, answerable only to High Lords. In theory, because in practice if enough important people want you to go down, you'll go down like the rest.

AluminiumWolf said:

Why do you assume that all players have inherently fragile egos and can't possibly hope to deal emotionally with anything that might challenge them? And that any GM who so much as implies that the player characters aren't the rampant manly god-kings of everything is an evil tyrant?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Hammer meet nail…

Of course there are power plays between the Deathwatch and the inquisition, hugely powerful secret shadow warriors who's jobs are to defend humanity. That describes both camps. The inquisition is the intel part of the operation and DW is the militant/executing branch. When they come into conflict they don't just kill each other, there will be politicking and intrigue. Remember that most marines are pretty smart and resourceful compared to a mortal, they are the best of the best of a thousand worlds who would have been heroes regardless. Inquisitors are powerful and connected, wealthy beyond measure and able to bring to bare their own gland upgraded, cyber enhanced warriors, powerful psychers and regiments of guardsmen.

If the kill-team wants to kill-team an inquisitor then sure they can, they might strike him down, then the intrigue starts as the team has to come up with justification for their action, report to their superiors and defend their actions. On another hand they might go back to the fortress and seek sanction for their censure of the rogue inquisitor, then all the politicking comes first. In both scenarios they might come into conflict with the inquisitors allies, be they acolytes, other inquisitors or in the case of a true radical he might have been trafficking with vile xenos or some such.

Bottom line is that there is good role-play to be had