+++++That's kinda the point of being a Space Marine, isn't it? Phenomenal power, itty-bitty living space.+++++

I dont… think it is essential.

While mind controlled attack dogs of The Man with an inbuilt kill switch to shut them down if they express an opinion is certainly one way to spin Marines, I feel there are others.

For a start, unless television has lied to me, such a character must eventually learn to say no and lead a rebellion against The Man.

But we can select other archetypes. What if Marines are more like Arthurian Knights and Marine organisations are not strictly hierarchical military organisations but instead more a loose fraternity of Warrior Brothers? You don't get assigned missions by superior officers, instead rather opportunities for doing epic deeds for the glory of the Emperor come up and Marines petition for the chance to win glory they provide. Or just, yknow, head out on their own.

You can see this in the suggested structure of Deathwatch kill teams, where there is no official chain of command but rather individual Marines step up to take point as their skills dictate on an ad-hoc basis. Which is totally a conceit to make a roleplaying game easier, but this is a roleplaying game .

And you can mix and match.

So a kill team could consist of Kurt Russell from Soldier, Lancelot, Soap McTavish (or Andy McNab) and Eric Bloodaxe having an adventure together.

From a purely practical point of view, people who want to indulge in a spot of power fantasy (which I think is a totally valid way of playing Space Marines) are not going to appreciate having it rubbed in their faces that they are totally someones ***** and they should shut the **** up and know their place.

+++++And that any GM who so much as implies that the player characters aren't the rampant manly god-kings of everything is an evil tyrant?+++++

Well, I mean, what is wrong with playing a rampant manly god king every once in while? And when are you going to get a better chance to play a rampant manly god king than when playing a mighty Space Marine?

And if your advice on how to handle the situation starts to sync up with the guy who doesn't like Marines and admits to trolling the forum…

UncleArkie said:

I'm not doing an enormous amount other than suggesting that in a game where we are playing Marines, it should turn out that being the best of the best of a million worlds who would have been heroes regardless should turn out to be cooler than being powerful and connected, wealthy beyond measure and able to bring to bear their own gland upgraded, cyber enhanced warriors, powerful psychers and regiments of guardsmen.

Cause otherwise, what do you want to say? Do you really want to emphasise that their being a mighty warrior doesn't actually mean ****? Do you really want the central thesis of your Space Marine game in which everyone is playing Space Marines to be that in the final analysis Space Marines don't count for **** and what you actually want to be playing is an Inquisitor? And if you do… WWWWWWHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYY??????!!!!!111!!?

I mean, quite apart from anything else when a lone warrior pits their skills against a shadowy evil organisation you should generally bet on the lone warrior. In fiction.

AluminiumWolf said:

The problem is that DeathWatch is not just a game about Space Marines. It's a part of the overarching Warhammer 40k mythos. In Warhammer 40k if you are human or at least allied with them, the Emperor the Church, and the High Lords are at the top. In Warhammer 40k loyal Space Marines are pretty much nothing but tools who were genetically engineered to be the Emperor's killing machines. Sure they're **** good at their job, but ultimately that's all loyal Space Marines can do, kill the Church's enemies.

Sure a Space Marine who get's jilted could try to go Renegade and try to fix the problems from the outside. But the vast majority of the renegades either get curbstomped give into temptation and fall to Chaos.

Obviously I disagree. The Imperium only exists because of the martial skills of the Adeptus Astartes. The Inquisiton and the Church may herd the sheeple, but in the final analysis without the Marines badassness they would be swiftly torn apart by the enemies of Mankind. And everyone knows it.

All anyone else can do is stay out of their way and let the Marines do what they do.

This is true, at least as long as we are playing Marines. If we are playing imperial guard supply clerks, it turns out that the whole thing hinges on logistics. Unless we are doing 1984 in which case it doesn't.

AluminiumWolf said:

What's your point? Nearly all nations need an arms forces branch to survive. The Imperium also wouldn't exist without the PDF, Imperial Navy or the Guard. It's not like the Space Marines can handle everything.

I would suggest in a Space Marine game it turns out that Marines make by far the most important contribution.

They are the PCs, the Protagonists, the Heros. What, you want them to just stand around while the NPCs save the day?

Again , I'm just saying that in the Big Picture of the Warhammer 40k Imperium, Space Marines are pretty much at the bottom of the heap . Here's a rough chart of the structure of the Imperium. See Space Marines all the way down at the bottom?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperium#.T-xq13r4V8E

Iike I say, if you want to remind the players that their PCs are totally someones *****, and that they don't matter, and that they should shut up and do what they are told you totally can. If you do, I heartily recommend following your advice.

I am just not entirely sure that is what people are going to want out of a Space Marine game. And if it isn't, there is stuff you can do.

Aluminium, I think you may have bought too many advances in Resistance: Nuance.

Captain Ventris said:

Well okay, but I don't think it is massively over the top to suggest that the GM should probably try to have events conspire so that in the end the Inquisiton needs the PC Marines more than the PC Marines need the Inquisition.

AluminiumWolf said:

Well for me, it's one simple reason.

Challenge.

I don't want my victory handed to me on a silver platter just because I'm the Player. Or just because I'm playing a Space Marine. That's just weak, and rather defeats the purpose of even playing.

I want to fight for it! I want to bleed for my victory, and roar it to the heavens as I slam a pike mounted with my foe's head in to the dirt, for all the tattered remnants of his forces to see, before they are routed and slaughtered by the Emperor's Angel's of Death. I want to have epic duels with Chaos Champions that I actually stand a chance of losing, so that when I cut them down it's all the sweeter! Narrow escapes from worlds so deadly that they venturing there should be certain death even for the legendary Astartes. Standing side-by-side with Chapter Masters, Saints and Warmasters as the myriad forces of the xenos, traitor, and daemon are trampled in to the tearstained mud and ash of their worlds. And I Want the satisfaction of knowing that ME, the Player, is responsible for getting my character to that spot, and not the GM.

And yes, that means being "the *****" sometimes, because occasionally you make a wrong decision, or simply because the dice screw you over (that's why we have Fate points anyway, of which Space Marines have many). It's part of the whole sliding scale of Rist-Reward, and like I said, knowing that I can actually lose, makes winning taste all the sweeter.

And Rawrsong, the Astartes are military forces who are loyal to the Imperium, but they are not by any rate controlled by the Imperium, any more than the Knight's Templar were controlled by any of the European rulers at the time (the Pope didn't even). They listen because of matters of faith, and oaths of fealty and obligation, as well as to uphold their own honour. And within those general guidelines, they go where they want, prosecute what conflicts they want, and listen to whoever they want. More often, when a Chapter follows the orders of an Inquisitor, it's because they have a past history with them, or they just flat out agree that they need to handle the problem in question.

Look at the books describing the Crusade and the Jericho Reach, they're hardly forging new fluff when they talk about how the regular Imperial military chain of command finds dealing with the Astartes frustrating, because they aren't under anyone's command, even the Warmaster. And that's generally how it's been described, through novels, codices, and Imperial Armour books (the 4-5th one a Red Scorpions captain basically tells an Inquisitor to go to hell, and leaves him to die on a Tyranid infested world).

Also, your chart is more correctly, the organizational structure of the Imperium. While the Space Marines are technically a part of the Adeptus, it's more of an honourary title, and the Administratum holds absolutely no authority over them. Hell, by your chart the Custodes, the Emperor's freaking bodyguards, and pretty much the only people allowed to see him in person, are only of middling rank.

The GM needs to be receptive to the idea that the players will, or at least can, come out of the situation on top.

It is entirely possible that the situation plays out like, as soon as the PCs look at the Inquisitor funny, the fifty eversor assassins who are his bodyguard turn off their thermoptic camo, put the PCs in a headlock and drag them off to the headmaster for a stern talking to like the naughty schoolboys they are. While making comments that make it clear the (female) assassins are totally not impressed by the fact that the Marines do not have functioning penises. And it isn't like you couldn't justify that in the fluff! It just isn't going to be a lot of fun people who signed up for a game that they thought was going to be about how cool Marines are.

It is sorta a difference between are you looking to actually punish the players for doing something you don't like, or provide a challenge that lets them show how awesome they are by getting out of it?

And what methods of coming out on top are you willing to accept? Is your idea of a cool way to get out of the situation the same as the players idea of a cool way to get out of the situation, or do you want to force them to act in a way that they don't think is optimally cool in order to be successful?

If everyone is clear and agrees on how to come out of a given situation looking cool you are probably fine. But I have played in a lot of games where it either wasn't clear how we were supposed to come out of a situation with any dignity at all, or had to act the way the GM thought was cool in order to get anywhere (often this involves sucking up to their favourite NPCs or being what I consider boring).

+++++And I Want the satisfaction of knowing that ME, the Player, is responsible for getting my character to that spot, and not the GM.+++++

I'm not sure that will ever be more than an illusion in a roleplaying game. And you are going to have to work together to create that illusion.

Just because James Bond is the 'best of the best' doesn't entitle him to assassinate the Brittish Prime Minister, nuke world capitols, etc. Even the mega-heroes that the plot revolves around have to at least pay lip-service to command structure.

When you watched The Avengers , did you say "This sucks because the Avengers haven't toppled all world governments and set themselves up as dictators of the Earth!" ?

I say again: carte blanche is boring. Give me Batman over Superman any day…

AluminiumWolf said:

The thing you seem to be not understanding is that this is Warhammer 40k. Warhammer 40k is the poster child for a Grimdark setting, not a fairy tale setting where classical heroes always have to win. In Warhammer 40k, as you put it, "The Shadowy Evil Organization" are the Good Guys of the Imperium. If Space Marines get caught killing an Inquisitor without a **** good reason they can back up with solid evidence and support, that instantly makes them Bad Guys of the story. If the GM is staying true to the lore of Warhammer 40k then yea, it doesn't matter if Space Marines are supposed to be "Cool", they just ****** up and there should be some consequences for ******* up. If GM is ok with the Space Marines to being virile macho men who are wreaking women with their jumbo dongs and who always in the right no matter what they do just because they're "Cool" then that's fine. However it wouldn't be true to the lore of Warhammer 40k.

Neither is the Inquisition being all powerful to the point where merry hell will rain down on anyone who crosses them for any reason.

For one simple reason, they're busy, and don't have the resources to squander on (every) petty act of revenge against someone who mouthed off and told you that you could stick your Inquisitorial rossette where the sun doesn't shine.

And Space Marines have always been one of the Imperial power blocs (alongside Navigator Houses, the Mechanicum, and a couple others) who give the Inquisition a lot of trouble.

And stop antagonizing AlumiumWolf with comments you know are blatantly foolish, it's just making him hyper… >.>

AluminiumWolf said:

Well maybe I'm just lucky when it comes to the majority of GM's I've dealt with in the past. But no, my character's success has usually been down to me more than the GM. They craft the adventure of course, but they also set a reasonable level of challenge (IE: as previously mentioned one where I have to fight, figuratively or literally, for my victory), and then step back to let the players make their own choices, the chips falling as they may from that.

Sorry if I'm repeating what has already been said, but wouldn't it depend on the authority and stature of the Inquisitor killed? While all Inquisitors are nominally equal (below Lord Inquisitors, of course), how much clout they have depends on deeply personal relationships that an Inquisitor manages to forge with other Inquisitors and members of the Adepta. I could easily see a young Inquisitor, or one with few allies, being killed without too much of an uproar.

Blood Pact said:

Sigh…sadly my summer has devolved to the point where being a troll and baiting idiots like Alumium is quite entertaining >.<

I think everyone who 'disagrees' with me is trolling. Thank you for confirming it.

See! If you disagree with me you are agreeing with the guy who hates Space Marines and is just trolling the boards!!!!!1111!

--

Rawrsong said:

This literally cannot be correct. For one thing it completely omits Ordo Hereticus. For another The Inquisition is not subject to oversight by the High Lords of Terra. Third, the individual Space Marine Chapters really fall under the Adeptus Terra generally, not the Administratum.

+++++Well maybe I'm just lucky when it comes to the majority of GM's I've dealt with in the past. But no, my character's success has usually been down to me more than the GM. They craft the adventure of course, but they also set a reasonable level of challenge (IE: as previously mentioned one where I have to fight, figuratively or literally, for my victory), and then step back to let the players make their own choices, the chips falling as they may from that.+++++

But the GM interprets how the world reacts to the choices. So does he have the Inquisition write off the loss of an Inquisitor or bring their full resources to bear to avenge the insult? Does the PCs Watch Captain approve of their actions or just back them anyway because they are fellow Marines? Are any Inquisition hit squads defeatable or overwhelming? If defeatable are they defeatable purely with use of the combat system, or will there need to be Clever Ideas employed. If Clever Ideas are neeeded, what counts as a Clever Idea?. Will the Inquisition keep sending hit squads until the PCs are dead or will they forget about it after a token effort?

And there is no real 'objective' answer to any of these questions. You can pick any outcome you can justify and you can justify a lot. How the chips fall depends on the calls the GM makes.

Certainly the results you get can depend on your own skill, but this is largely your skill in figuring out how the GM will respond and what to say to get him decide on an outcome that you find pleasing than anything more, yknow, in universe.

AluminiumWolf said:

Actually I really do absolutely hate the Space Marines in video and pen and paper games. I don't have any insecurities that I need to cover up by RPing as a 'roided up genetic freak who's main purpose to exist is to kill things.

Kshatriya said:

Not only is it wrong for that reason, but the Mechanicus is definitely not under the Adeptus Terra, nor are the Custodes, nor is the Officia Assassinorum.

The high lords are fairly clearly, in my mind, modeled after the old English "Privy Council," with representatives from the various jurisdictions advising the king. Only in this case, the King is a Golden Throne, so they just run the show instead.

AluminiumWolf said:

Well story necessities always come up from time to time, when it comes to running the game. And while noone likes being railroaded, sometimes the GM needs to make someone/something react to the characters in a certain way to keep the story progressing as planned. But that aside, my GM's look at the setting as is and base their decisions off that.

And for all your love of Space Marines, Wolf, even you have to admit that the fluff doesn'r depict them as unstobbable warrior gods who never break a sweat and always come out on top, whether they're fighting hordes of slavering mutants or duelling a Hive Tyrant. Who cannot be touched by any Imperial authority short of the Emperor himself.

No, they have to contend with the Inquisition as much as the Inquisition contends with them. Just be **** happy that they didn't make the Deathwatch subservient to the Ordo Xenos. Minor, but still the best change in fluff I've seen in a while, with absolutely nothing lost, or to complain about.

So like I was saying, in my past experience, the GM's have generally based the behavior and interactions with NPC's on the default setting (with conceit for story concerns, of course), past actions of the players, and whatever info had been made up about the NPC's built for the game beforehand (which is again, based on the standard 40K setting). So were we to kill an Inquisitor, if that Inquisitor was radical, but powerful with many allies and minions, then yes they are going to find some opposition moving against them, even if there was good reason for it. But unless the killing was totally uncalled for they're unlikely to recieve censure, be stripped of their armour, and sent home in disgrace (remember that Space Marines kinda stick together).

Like I said, challenge. You're playing a warrior demi-god, part of a force more than capable of bringing entire civilized worlds to their knees. But the galaxy isn't going to lay down at your feet in awe of your complete unstoppableness. Frankly Wolf, when you get way too enthusiastic about Space Marines, the stuff you talk about is right out of the immature, little boy, ****-fest that people sometimes describe 40K in general, and Space Marines in particular, as. And I can't ******* STAND those people, because this is my favourite game, and just like its more farcical origins (another thing I wish people would shutup about), it's moved past that.

Rawrsong said:

Subtle troll is subtle.

+++++And for all your love of Space Marines, Wolf, even you have to admit that the fluff doesn't depict them as unstobbable warrior gods who never break a sweat and always come out on top, whether they're fighting hordes of slavering mutants or duelling a Hive Tyrant. Who cannot be touched by any Imperial authority short of the Emperor himself.+++++

True enough, but

1: like I say I think the fluff makes more sense if they are. And, like, since Marines are the biggest thing in tabletop gaming surely we want them to be important .

2: I kinda think that that is what a lot of people who play Marines are going to want. I don't think many people are going to go in thinking 'Yeah! I totally want to have it rubbed in my face that my mighty Space Marine doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things! That will be so much fun !'.

+++++Frankly Wolf, when you get way too enthusiastic about Space Marines, the stuff you talk about is right out of the immature, little boy, ****-fest that people sometimes describe 40K in general, and Space Marines in particular, as. And I can't ******* STAND those people, because this is my favourite game, and just like its more farcical origins (another thing I wish people would shutup about), it's moved past that.+++++

Well, I think, pretty explicitly, that we shouldn't apologise for or try to hide that side of the game. I mean, to a great extent I am that guy. In the past I've tried to hide it, but **** it man, Space Marines are TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!!!

So I want to embrace that side. I mean, I don't think the Space Marine Fanboy stereotype came from nowhere , especially since I embody a fair amount of it and so do people I know in meatspace. So, I dunno, why try really hard to avoid giving people what they want? It isn't like the taste police are going to draw a massive line between Playing the Awesome Marine You Always Dreamed Of and playing a Sensible Marine Who Is Reasonable And Not Over The Top At All, so if you are going to be damned for wanting to play a Space Marine why not make the most of the experience?

So in essence, stop apologising, embrace the awesome, and deliver hardcore, unadulterated Space Marine fanservice!