While I'm waiting for the SSU book to actually use this model, I figured I'd at least repose the horrible running legs…

I like what you did there. When I looked at the DT stats on that beast, I sent my FLGS owner a text telling him he couldn't show it to our local Allies Player-Base until the Zverograd campaign book and the Wotan AR arrive, but could freely sell it online.

When I was there yesterday, I noticed he put it behind the SSU stuff, which is down the aisle nearly hidden, while all the Allied and Axis stuff is on the end-face if the aisle. I had no idea he'd take me seriously!

So, of course I showed it to my favorite opponent. He's fun to play even when he wins. He decided to hold off for the rulebook, but also commented on the pose. I'll have to show him what you did.

Shadow4ce said:

Thats just mean!

It was almost a too easy conversion. The front wheel only holds the right leg on by one small piece of plastic. Once that was off, I swiveled it down, adjusted the foot angle, and was done. Didn't even touch the left leg.

I want rules for mix-and-matching the arms of German walkers, like they are pictured in the source material. Also, I want a Mk II with a dual 5cm gun on one arm, a long 88 on the other, and a triple-MG cupola, like the one on the cover of the Dust boardgame. This 'you can only have what we give you' is GW-level balls.

Also, I want the 'ontos' mod for the American medium walker; saw it on Parente's Dust site. Neat!!

Warboss Krag said:

While we would all like to mix and match, I have a feeling the load outs are designed for balance. Mix and match would lead directly to list optimization which sucks. You would develop a core of WAAC players, just like 40K, who ruin the game for others.

Mix and Match would be difficult because while having one of a certain type of gun might be worth X AP, adding a second one is probably worth more than another X AP.

This is because of the way the cover and armor system works. A single 6/1 gun against a unit in soft cover will on average get in one hit (before armor saves), while two 6/1 guns against a unit in soft cover will on average get 3 hits against a unit in soft cover - the second gun is worth about twice as much as the first one.

So you couldn't really do a straight-forward mix&match - they would have to look at each combination and cost each walker separately. So there's more effort than just deciding how much AP each weapon is worth and then adding them to a base cost for the walker.

I'll simply paraphrase an earlier thread: "Writing rules is a game designer's job." Do the French Dust Tactics designers want to do their job to fit the story line, art work, and modellling or not? Apparently not.

Given the opportunity, I'd write those rules. Take me all of an afternoon; maybe a couple of weeks for playtesting (only testing one element, not an entire game, you see), and another hour for the end edit, and viola!

Krag, if it takes that short of time, you should write the rules anyway. It would be interesting to speculate how custom mechs would fit into the platoon selection system.

2 of my friends who are totally new to miniatures have taken to this game. Adding more complexity to the army selection process would be a turnoff for them, especially if the same weapon costs differently based on how many times it is used on a model.

Personally, I like the current systems for its balance and elegance, but write away!

Oh, and I would say "writing FUN rules is game designer's job".

At the risk of sounding sarcastic, it's not rocket science. Given that this system is way simpler than, say, Car Wars (remember that, anyone?), with a lot smaller point spread, I don't think that highly tuned balance was a concern of the designers. I mean, there's a 5-point difference between the laser/quad 20mm and the Hans rocket armament…and the Hans armament is a massive step up, considering the splash and tank-killer qualities, along with the indirect fire ability.

But let's go ahead an look at the MkII armaments as presented. The Luther's ranged 5cm gun makes it 5 points more expensive than the Loth's double kampflange, and the Ludwig's dual 88/L56 guns make it 10 points more expensive than the Luther. The Lothar is a special case, with its double MRLs, but it still comes in at 40 points. Extrapolating from these numbers, I'd guess that the base-line cost of a MkII (with MG) is 20 points. Each kampflange costs 5, a single 88L56 costs 15 and the double adds 5 (it really doesn't add that much; based on other double weapons, it seems that the dual-weapon mechanic generally adds a single die to each category. More on that later), the 5cm costs 5 points, and each nebelwerfer costs 10 (those seem to have multiple effects, doubling their dice instead of just adding one). This is without knowing any design calculations; just simple extrapolation.

Running with those numbers, then there'd be a simple shopping list. A MkII with kampflange and 88L56 would be 20+5+5=40 points. With 88L56 and MRL? 20+15+10=45 points. As for the dice numbers for the formerly dual armaments, the single 88L56 gun line would lose half its dice firing at infantry - these guns apparently use only AP ammo, which makes sense given that they're auto-loaded - and has one fewer dice shooting at armor. The single nebelwerfer would halve its dice on all categories.

There you have it. Try it out, folks; tell us what you find. And don't bloviate on about 'game balance' and other frak until you've tried it! Dust minis give us the ability to mix and match, and the background supports it (check the photos!), so why shouldn't we?

(BTW, my mention of Car Wars - anyone play Aeroduel, Car Wars Tanks? Check the author's credits. I've a little experience with game design.)

Never played Aeroduel, but I believe Car Wars, in it's Ziplock baggy, was my first Steve Jackson game, bought with my hard-earned summer job money in late 1980, I was 14. Good times.

Me too! Who knew it would eventually end up making me money? I bought it because I drove an old '73 Fury III, a 4500lb road cruiser that actually had enough spare room under the hood for a couple of M2HBs (I figured). And with the retard traffic around here ('buckle of the bible belt,' and rural rubes to boot), there were a lot of times I wanted those twin .50s…At least Car Wars allowed me a game of that fantasy.

1981. 31 years ago. I'm old.

By the way, can anyone tell me what weapons packages come with the new level 3 walkers? (the Cobra/Rattler and the Mk III.)

Warboss Krag said:

Cobra - 180 Watt Phaser Cannon, .50 cal MG, .30 cal MG

Rattler - 40 mm AA twin, .50 cal MG, .30 cal MG

Wotan - Scwere Laser Kanone Zwei, MG 44

Flamm-Luther - Schwere Flammenwerfer (x2), MG 44

Odd, the Cobra/Rattler box says "with four weapons systems" or some such. So what are they gonna put on the KV47 box, "Comes with six separate weapons systems" or something like that, since it comes with 6 arms? That's deceptive marketing. (Or, in other words, lying. Oh, yeah, that's marketing in a nutshell, innit?)

Well the allied box has 4 units the cobra and rattler and the amphibious version so technically 4 "different" walkers. the axis box has wotan/wotan-AR and flamm-Luther, for a total of 3. I mean from a marketing perspective its better to say the higher numbers but its really 1 walker with 2 weapon sets in each box.