Every GM/player stumbles in RL (or on the internet) upon weapons, which should appear somewhere in the 40k Universe.

I, at least, found 2 which intrigued me long enough to convert them into playalbe stats.

1.In the Fane of Westingkrup the artisians specialise in making the deadliest but also simplest tools of murder and slaughter. When a customer once complained about a Carnodon Pattern precision Hand Cannon not having enough punch, he was asked what kind of punch he wanted from a pistol.

As an anwer, the customer pulled a machine gun bullet from one of his pockets and put in on the table. "That would a have a good enough kick" he said.

He was, of course, cursed and thrown out, for such an insulance.

One of the artisans however picked up the bullet, and the challenge.

For years he laboured and tinkered in his workshop, to either find a suitable design that would simply accept a bigger calibre, or commit the atrocity and create something new. In the end, he decied to simply increase an existing weapon in size till it could hold and fire the bullet. He chose a Model 20 'Scalptakter' Stub revolver. The artisans name was Falkner, Hrumingar Falkner.

The product, called the Falkner Zeliska (named after his deceased wife) is a revolver of huge dimensions. It is 550 mm (21,65 inches) long, up to 69 mm (2,71 inches) broad and weights 6,5 kg (14,33 lbs) unloaded alone. The chamber holds 5 bullets, and requires most people to use both hands to fire it. It is so far the most powerful solid projectile hand cannon one can own. And it has its price.

Falkner Zeliska Pistol 45m S/-/- 1d10+6 I Pen: 3 Clip: 5 2 Full 6,5 kg 350 Thrones Very Rare, even on Scintilla.

It only takes heavy weapon ammo, and requires a SB of 5 to be fired as a pistol, otherwise it requires both hands and counts as a basic weapon.

Inspiration: www.bootsandsabers.com/images/uploads/Zeliska2.pdf

2. On the battlefield an Imperial Commander is often tasked with completing a mission with limited resources. In order to make the most of the often damaged tools of war he has his men in the field workshops must come up with quick solutions that help win the war, even if they have to ignore several rules.

One thing that infantry relying companies often face is a hard hitting, long range offering, but not to heavy weapons. No one can say if it was a struck of genius, or simply the desperate act of a workshop, when they decided to misreat the damaged Autocannons. By reducing the firing mechanism to singe fire, reducing the clip size, and otherwise stripping it of any other part considered unneccessary they came up with the Long Range Reactivated Delivery System, nicknamed 'LoRD' by most troops. It offers a greater range and higher fire power than a long las, while still being carried by a single trooper. The drawbacks, heavier than a long las, smaller clip and lack of RoF compared to a real autocannon are often dismissed as keeping the troops more mobile, and able to knock out heavily armored opponents, from Chaos Marines to light tanks. Field workshops of the IG produce during their campaigns more than enough of these weapons, and several have turned up in the hands of privateers.

LoRD Rifle Heavy 300 S/-/- 4d10+5 I Pen: 4 Clip: 5 2 Full Accurate 20 kg 1200 Very Rare

Inspiration: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzio_20mm_rifle

Feel free to criticise these and/or post your own interpretations of RL guns.

segara82 said:

The pistol is completely invalid due to one consideration: it deals more damage then a machinegun. You want to match? Acceptable. But surpassing Bolters and Heavy Stubbers doesn't make sense in the context. The pistols you are talking about (things like the 400 Nitro, IIRC) are already shown in 40k - Hand Cannons.

The LoRD doesn't really make sense to me, tbh. Sniper rifles just don't use light armoured vehicle main weapon shells… I would model a new sniper rifle if you feel the need (I wouldn't argue about the need!) rather then adapt a broken weapon balanced only by being a huge, ungainly, excessively heavy heavy weapon to be a broken weapon…

Maybe grant it as much as 1d10+5, Accurate, 300meter range, Pen 4 + bullet mods.

Hmm. The first item on the list, this 'Zeliska' isn't such a bad idea. Here is what I'd suggest for changes (taking into consideration BBT's testimony)

1) Zeliska: 30m; S/-/-; 1d10+5 I; Pen 2; Clip 5; 2 Full Reload; Inaccurate 150( or 200) Throne Gelt - Scarce

The construction requires a solid frame, not any complex moving parts which means the weapon won't drastically increase in price over other Handcannons. It's also easier to produce than a Bolter, so it should be easier to find even if it's only sold in one locality. You're giving the weapon essentilly free manstopper bullets with those stats, so throwing in 'Inaccurate' should balance it. Inaccurate makes sense as no matter how strong you are the weapon is heavy and a proper firing stance with a weapon that size, and with a severe recoil, keeps you from keeping accurately trained on a target. (The rules are also simpler this way)

2) BBT, you pretty much just described 'the Nomad' sans Reliable.

segara,

Because you're essentially just using a stripped Autocannon I would say keeping it a Heavy weapon is good. It needs to be braced. Without the additional heft that the weapon normally has you're looking at worse recoil, or increased possibilities of weapon jams. The lack of mass won't be able to absorb as much recoil, and the severe compensation will damage and distort the weapon more quickly. You may want to make the weapon Unreliable. I'd also drop the Accurate quality.

Hmm, maybe i overdid it with the revolver a bit. But since the used ammo (.600 Nitro Express has a high velocity of 590 m/s at 10.152 Joule, trumping the .500 S&W 50 gr (23 g) JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point) 1,975 ft/s (602 m/s) 3,031 ft·lbf (4,109 J)) i wanted to give it more punch. Since the hand cannon with the biggest mentioned calibre (or any hint thereof) is the .54 Tranter Hand Cannon, which still seems to be of a 'smaller' calibre than the RL deal.

IMO it's the 'machine guns' that have a too weak punch. They rather seem to be squad automatic weapons than 'real' machine guns. But i digress.

I thought i had offset the high firepower with the usual things. Small clip, long reload, high attributes or compensating gear (recoil glove), high price (only the Mariette costs more) and high/low availability. I feel, if i lower the damage by 1 point (to 1d10+5) it would flatout loose to the .54 Tranter (bigger clip, faster reload, lower price, more available). But making it Inaccurate could further offset the firepower, thank you for your suggestion, IdOfEntity.

Honestly i wanted to introduce this gun

As for the LoRD, it is a anti-material rifle ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-materiel_rifle ), it is used against stationed enemy aircraft, small watercraft, light vehicles, power armoured personnel, communications equipment, radar equipment, crew served weapons and similar targets. Their value is in being able to precisely target and disable enemy assets from long range for a relatively low cost. Such a weapon was missing IMO in the previous selection, i own every DH book up until (and including) Ascenion. The Long Las and Nomad do not fit into this role, not to mention i wonder how Accurate should work against something that has no organs or other vulnerable spots. Thanks to a friend i knew of a few AM using rather large calibre (bigger than the 'usual' .50 BMG), therefore making them a Heavy Weapon (SP) (Guardsman Rank 1 can buy that). You can use it against normal humans, but the Long Las and Nomad are lighter, easier to use and hide. The LoRD shines against other targets, such as several vehicles listed in the Apocrypha, CSM and other 'hard' targets.

As far as sniper rifle go i am very happy with the Nomad, thank you.

Hell, US citizens can buy one: www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm

Well, hopefully Only War will give us good rules for vehicles (in combat) and new toys to counter them without wasting rather expensive krak missiles.

Majority of 'real' weapons I see missing from the 40K armoury aren't fancy, bespoke revolvers or rifles.

The bottom of the tier of recoil blowback submachineguns/machine carbine like the Sten, Owen, PPSh-41, M3 SMG, MP-40 and modern takes on the theme such as the Sterling, MP-5 and Uzi made out of cheap as **** stamped metal that fired a lot of pistol rounds very quickly. We sort of have the 18round 'machine-pistol' in the Autopistol and the Autogun which is a high capacity, full size assault rifle, but nothing in the way of something that middle ground which has a 30-50 round magazine and spits out anything from 7.62x20 & 9mm to .45cal, the latter of which I'd probably class as 'hand-cannon' in terms of how much mess it makes of things being shot at under 30-40 metres.

These 'should' be a very popular weapon as they where in most places that utilise and favour-

- Economy of material

- Simple to produce

- Very easy to use

- Compact size & weight

Mostly hive, fortress and war worlds by either PDF, rear escelon or vehicle crews and special forces, on the other side of the coin are insurgents, criminals and gangs who favour them for all the above reasons as well! They may not be fancy, often ugly and have terrible safety due to open-bolt operation, but they're reliable, everywhere and CHEAP.

The section automatic weapon (SAW to GPMG) (think M-60, Lewis Gun, MG-42, FN-MAG, RPK etc) is also mostly missing as well. Fired by an individual soldier and often have gas-blowback mechanism, use rifle ammunition out of a belt or high-cap magazine fed machine gun- these things to be blunt are f**king terrifying against ground troops and light vehicles because they **** out a lot of high velocity bullets down range, highly mobile and adaptable between offence and static engagements.

They do require a slightly higher level of materials, tooling and training to use so they wouldnt be as common as an SMG or Assault Rifle. I would probably also add-in the Accurised rifle to the list as well, which is essentially the 'Long-Las' version of an assault rifle that has a better barrel, lower rate of fire, but uses the same ammo and often same magazine as any other AR, but without the huge range a dedicated sniper rifle uses. These are typically deployed in a section that doesn't necessarily have sniper in them, (just one guy who's a slightly better rifleman) and end up often as a spotters weapon to a full sniper rifle or a counter-sniper role when you don't have artillery to get rid of an enemy sniper.

Some things to think about.

The giant revolver is just a Hand Cannon. We don't need any new rules for it. It also certainly shouldn't be almost as good as a bolter.

GPMGs are basically just smaller heavy stubbers (which are a class of weapon which represent a broad range of things, from 7.62mm GPMGs to .50 cal HMGs. Anything larger is prety much an Autocannon). Now, they would probably be slightly weaker (-1 damage, or -1 Pen or something).

SAWs don't seem to have an equivalent but they would basically function as an autogun with an extra specially large ammo capacity (and a slightly longer range).

SMGs would just be classed as auto-pistols (but you are right to point out the small ammunition capacity). Truthfully there should just be versions with higher ammunition capacity, and maybe a boost of +1 damage for bigger calibres.

borithan said:

The Zeliska fires elephant gun rounds, like the Flametongue Howdah Pistol. Basically, the Zeliska is an (oversized) six-shot version of that.

As for SMGs, I'd say do with them what the lascarbine did for the lasgun. 60m range, S/3/10, 1d10+3 I Pen 0, Mag 30, Reload Half, 2.5kg, Comes equipped with a pistol grip.

For an SMG, there is a book example in IH, the Talon Mk3, which when given the extended magazine (30, but I think 36 would fit better), it needs 2 hands, can't be holstered and is closer to a SMG. I would just up the range when held with two hands and call it a day.

And the Howdah pistol is different, it fires huge rounds, but soft deforming ones, meant to stop a charging animal (and the statline reflects this, powerful, but not practical against armor, it isn't perfect, but it tries). But even my DH PC who LOVES overkill in weapons (and owns a light AT rifle, 2 hand cannons, a howdah pistol and more), would pass at the Zeliska, as it isn't practical, it can't be easily controlled, it is excessive overkill (and this would be from a PC whose very favorite style is overkill).

Also, in real life, the gun you are basing it off is meant to be fired from a BENCH. It isn't really a pistol anymore, it just adopts the look of one so it can "be" the biggest pistol ever for those people who need the satisfaction of something silly like that. I mean, the .500 S&W is overkill of overkill (and the biggest pistol that is actually produced at normal numbers, not a custom made to order job because it has NO practical use), but that CAN be fired standing up.

Cymbel said:

The purpose of the Zeliska is to kill a charging elephant in one shot. How, again, is this different from the Howdah pistol?

Gittmasha, the Zeliska isn't intended to shoot elephants, it isn't practical in ANY way. It is meant as a gun to own and show off that you have "the biggest revolver ever", not to use it in any practical application. To use it somewhat accurately you need to rest it down on a bench.

The Howdah pistol was a last resort when you couldn't use your rifle and it exists on a different power level (from the Zeliska) and from what I know, it hurts like hell to fire and the same can be said of any powerful round in a light gun (weight is a GOOD thing in high power guns, to absorb the recoil, but too little means that you can't control the recoil, too much means it is hard to use)

If you want to see HOW infeasible the Zeliska is just to hold it, hold 6 kilograms (2.2x for pounds) in your arm, perfectly straight and see how long you can do that. The kicker is, that isn't as hard as actually holding one.

Here are some quotes from here ( http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html )

Because of its size , the Pfeifer-Zeliska .600 Nitro Express Magnum would really be required to be fired whilst resting on a bench clamp or small sand bags as shown in the image below.

The recoil is not violently uncontrollable, on the contrary it is tamed by the guns 13.23 lb's weight down to acceptable levels. A bi-pod and shoulder stock may be in order though as gravity would be the biggest issue, meaning that you would not be able to level this revolver at arms length for any great period of time.

Also, on that site, they show a single shot "lightweight" gun firing that cartridge, it is violently uncontrollable.

SIDE NOTE: As it is a single action that uses a reloading gate, reload speed is a LOT slower as you have to extract a spent round, put a new one in and repeat that slow process. 4 Full actions may be better.

Cymbel said:

It's loaded with elephant gun rounds. Of COURSE it's intended to shoot elephants. It may not be GOOD at shooting elephants compared to more practical weapons but that's not the point. Howdah pistols also fire elephant gun rounds. They're basically cut-down double rifles. I don't see what the issue is.

The Howdah pistol works because it can be drawn quickly, it is also very inaccurate, hurts like hell to fire and a last resort. The Pfeiffer-Zeliska is cumbersome to draw, the weight/size slows it down even more and it just isn't very good. It needs to be rested to use it accurately (otherwise your arm will fatigue quickly), it is slow to reload and a pistol never beats out a rifle in general, in this case even more so. A rifle in the same caliber will hit harder AND tavel farther (with the longer barrel giving the powder more time to burn, giving the round more "OOMPH"). It will weigh roughly the same (and be more balanced in the weight) but because of the stock and both hands stabilizing it, it will have even GREATER accuracy from that alone.

To be honest, you would be better served in the current day by having a high power rifle and either a howdah pistol or a "handcannon" than EVER getting that monstrosity of a pistol only meant for the people who have more cash than sense.

On the plus side, if you stick it down your pants it will compensate not only for your own inadequacy but the inadequacy of everyone else in a six mile radius.

That is true! +10 to intimidate!

I believe an Anti-Materiel rifle already exists in 40k.

Here is how you do it:

You take a Nomad Hunting Instrument.

You add Expander Rounds (this would be a very difficult to find ammunition, as the ammo on this is already Rare…)

You get:

250m, S/-/-, 1d10+6I, Pen 4, Clip 4, Rld Full, Accurate, Reliable.

The cheaper version is:

You take a Pax Factorem Rifle

You add Expander Rounds or Man-Stopper bullets

You get:

150m, S/2/-, 1d10+4I, Pen 3, Clip 5, Rld Full, Accurate,

Or if you are using Man-Stopper bullets rather than Expander rounds, it is 1d10+3I.

And when you REALLY need to destroy something armored, here are the stats of the Nomad with loaded with a Hyper Density Penetrator:

125m, S/-/-, 1d10+5i, pen 5, clip 4, rld full, accurate, reliable, tearing. At that point, it is basically a Bolter.

Also remember that Black Crusade gives the following stats for a stub rifle: 120m, S/-/-, 1d10+3i, pen 1, rld full, clip 5, accurate, which is 1 more penetration and 30 less range than other stats for the 'hunting rifle'. And a 'steadholder lever gun' is 100m, S/-/-, 1d10+4i, pen 0, clip 6, rld full. As best as I can tell, the damage for this one is needlessly high, especially compared to a hunting rifle and the true large caliber sniper rifle, the Pax Factorem, unless you homebrew the pax to by default be 1d10+4i (which makes sense, especially since the armageddon autogun exists at 1d10+4i default…). It is conceivable that there might be a hunting rifle that is "150m, s/-/-, 1d10+4 i, pen 1, rld full, clip 5, accurate" somewhere, especially if the pax factorem is houseruled to have one higher damage.

Also: the closest thing to an automatic Battle Rifle in the game is an Armageddon Pattern Autogun, which does more damage than most autoguns. 100m, S/2/6, 1d10+4i, pen0, clip 15, rld full, reliable.

If we wanted to hash out these stats so that they made more sense, so that bigger rifle bullets had bigger damage and penetration in general (like I mentioned), than some plausible stats for a FAL style battle rifle (ie, have the Armageddon as a battle rifle) would be:
100m, S/2/6, 1d10+4i, pen1, clip 15, rld full, reliable

In conclusion. Final stats of all the rifles mentioned, after normalizing/homebrew:

Lever Gun/Civilian Firearm/Stub Carbine/Light Rifle: 100m, S/-/-, 1d10+3i, pen 0, rld full, clip 6

Cheap Hunting Rifle: 120m, S/-/-, 1d10+3i, pen 1, rld full, clip 5, accurate

Good Hunting Rifle: 150m, S/-/-, 1d10+4i, pen 1, rld full, clip 5, accurate

Battle Rifle (ie Amageddon): 100m, S/2/6, 1d10+4i, pen1, clip 15, rld full, reliable

Sniper Rifle (ie Pax Factorem): 150m, S/2/-, 1d10+4i, pen 2, clip 5, rld full, accurate

Anti-Materiel Rifle (ie Nomad): 250m, S/-/-, 1d10+5i, pen 3, clip 4, rld full, accurate, reliable

And if you REALLY want to get some penetration on the cheap, and don't want to homebrew, the best way to do it is to get a Skitarii Vanaheim Assault Shotgun, and use Solid Slugs with the thing. All told, that gets you:

40m, S/3/6, 1d10+5i, Pen 2, Clip 15, rld full, has a red dot sight and melee attachment.

Also, a much rarer but not much more expensive shotgun is the vox legi shotgun, which, when with solid slugs, gets you:

30m, S/2/-, 1d10+10I, pen2, clip 14, rld 2full, can be used as a club.

Remember, Solid Slugs are Common, and probably about as expensive as normal Shells (maybe a bit more)! They are like cheaper, longer range, non-tearing Hyper Density Penetrators.

Also, if you get one of the much more accurate bolters, and use Solid Bolt rounds, it acts like a short range Anti Materiel Rifle.

A Solo Boltgun with a Solid Bolt has these stats:

100m, S/-/-, 1d10+5I, Pen 7, Clip 8, Rld Full, Accurate, Reliable.

Gavinfoxx said:

Solid bolts? I'm sorry… Solid… bolts?

Hyper Density Penetrators? That is all I can think of

Probably, but why you'd pay 100 Thrones per round for a measly +2 Pen is beyond me. Even the blowing-off-their-feet effect doesn't justify the cost.

I would just take a scaled down autocannon and make it a S/-/- heavy weapon damage prolly somewhere around 3d10

Boss Gitsmasha said:

Because when you shoot the BBG with them and they fail their toughness test they fall over. Very very handy as my Assassin demonstrated a few times.

Interrogator Z

Boss Gitsmasha said:

Oh, sorry, I think that might be fan specs. However, some versions of the fluff for kraken penetrators removed the explosive from the bolt (leaving only the solid penetrator and the propellant), and hyper density penetrators work for bolts as well.

Zakalwe said:

Why don't you just hit the BBEG with a chainaxe and watch him fall over dead? It'd be cheaper and more damaging than a mag of penetrators, and you can reuse it. Or use a stun grenade, or a hallucinogen bomb, or set him on fire with a flamer or Molotov Cocktail and watch him fail his Willpower test to do anything but run around and scream?