So, I know that the majority of people hate Ascension, and two of the biggest reasons are the Primaris Psyker and the Vindicare Assassin. I am doing some stuff with the later's brothers, and I am trying to remember what, specifically, were the big complaints with the Vindicare, that might carry over to the others, and what the good fixes were? I know that the one was with them Dodging two digits worth of times EACH round, and being unable to fail, and the fix involved a Field, effect, or some such. Can I please get the rundown on problems and solutions? Thanks.

Psykers, I assume, were just the Unn WP, coupled with the better, but more broken psy system Ascension, and RT/DW mostly use. I care more about the Assassins, but as the Culexus fight Psykers, preferably the big, dangerous psykers, a refresher on this might help, too.

As I recall, the fan-suggested 'fix' for the Vindicare was to limit them to a number of Dodges equal to their Agility Bonus, and to cap the chance of success at 95%, i.e. 96+ is always a failure. For Primaris Psykers, it was suggested to use Psi Rating rather than WP Bonus in a psychic power's effect.

My players are coming up on Ascention level, and, naturally, I have one who wants to be a Vindicare and one who wants to be a Primaris Psyker. So, please give us an update on how these 'fixes' actually work.

Adeptus-B said:

I would give them 1 extra Dodge making it 3 dodges each round which is better then everyone else. Just a nice bonus compared to the rest ofg the PC's. I like the limit of 96& succes chance max and I would like to apply it not just to dodging for that matter.

Another problem I have is why do snipers need Unnatural Strength and Unnatural Toughness? Considering that main combat chars do not gain these, I would scrap these as well. Because it is just silly. And no, I dont care if they have str 4 and t 4 in the wargame. They dont need it in this game.

They don't need Unnatural Strength and Toughness, but in the fluff as well as the Tabletop mini game they are as strong and tough as Space Marines, just not as well armored. In any case a good well played Vindicare won't really have to worry about being seen and taking shots at all.

I run a game with a Vindicare and he's not really a problem in combat. He only uses his Exitus rifle and since its a one shot weapon he just aims and shoots. In most combats he just kills one guy a turn unless spotted in which case he usually gets dodged by the big bad.

As an aside I have always instituted the 96%+ roll is always a failure. It has worked despite not coming up so much. Most of my PC's fail on way less than that even at ascension. The group Vindicare's Dodge is only 88 % to boot.

The Officio Assassinorum NPCs I wrote up for my Black Crusade campaign used a modified version of the Temple Assassin trait:

Temple Assassin: The Assassin's combat awareness is such that they can avoid many attacks with contemptuous ease. The Assassin may attempt a Dodge Test with a -60 penalty instead of the normal modifier, but if he does this then the Dodge does not use up any of the Assassin's reactions.

In essence, it allows the character to attempt to dodge an infinite number of times every turn, but they suffer a huge penalty on those bonus dodges, so they're far from guaranteed to succeed.

Sister Callidia said:

Yeah, that's pretty much what I did as well.

Sister Callidia said:

I think that was to represent the fact that they undergo some serious biological upgrades. They are far from human, more transhuman. Of course I also changed how the Unnatural trait worked, changing it to a + bonus instead of a multiplier.

Hmm, I seem to remember that one of the fixes, and one I really liked, was to give them a FR 50, or some arbitrary number) effect, that obviously never overloads, and ignore the infinite number of Dodges. In this case, how often they dodge wasn't as big an issue; the fact that they didn't avoid the attack every time balanced it out. They'd have the regular amount, maybe their hyped up kind involving explosions, and let the field "invul save" carry them most of the way.

I'm trying to stat the Culexus and Callidus Assassins, sort of like how the Eversor is done in Ascension, so I don't particularly need it to be PC-fair; they are the opposition, not a player Vindicare everyone hates. Still, if they work similarly, I didn't want them to be two more unkillable behemoths of death, so if I could work in the fixes, so they were terrifying, but not auto-TPK. As is, they are each giving me their own little hick-ups, combining the nerfing the Inquisitorial part of Daemonhunters got in the new Codex (my overall best source for gear and specials) and the rules themselves, making them work in game. Vindicare are lucky that they are "just" super-snipers. I am having to figure out super-null, draining field, polymorphine, and such, which might be why the book said, "for the other, do the Eversor."

As to Unn, Toughness and Strength, they all have them, and they have them because most everything they fight is better than Humans. If a Callidus is going to impersonate an Ork, the least she can do is be durable enough to play the part, while the Assassin called to fight the Word Bearers will need to be able to fend off CSMs and Daemons. They aren't for your run-of-the-mill kills, but for the big bads, who MUST fall. Just be happy they don't follow the Eldar, and have Unn. Agility (oh yeah, Vin can get that ).

As a second, minus just saying "no, Unnatural Traits are only fair for NPCs and Space Marines!" would it be out of place to give the Callidus Unnatural Fellowship, and/or the Culexus Unnatural Willpower? Making Deceive and Disguise checks is a lot of the Callidus's job, while increasing the range of the psi-disruption (Radical's Handbook, p.38, I prefer it to the other version in Disciples of the Dark Gods) could be critical to a lone Culexus. Thanks again, folks, for all the help.

****, long post eaten by quote formatting.

In short:

I'm one of the proponents of using the Force Field mechanics to represent the Officio Assassinorum evasion training. 50% seems good and quite in line with what they get in TT.

I don't think Unnatural WP for Culexus or Fel for Callidus are a good idea. Unnaturals shouldn't be handed out just because someone is supposed to be good at something - were that the case, each and every career in any 40k game would have multiple Unnatural traits in it's advancement scheme sooner or later, but it's mostly reserved for special cases like not-quite-human characters (and abused in Ascension, but hey, it's Ascension so one more stupid thing shouldn't be a surprise).

I think the way to handle that is through custom, specific rules. Callidus are master dissemblers and human chameleons, so give them some special advantage in lying and disguise, rather than incidentally making them natural born leaders and charmers. Culexus are well beyond the scope of blank rules in RH, so adjust the rules for them to give them more bang for their buck without making them all inhumanly determined in the process.

venkelos said:

I don't think it would be a problem, though you should consider the practical effects of doing so. Remember that giving something the Unn trait doesn't actually increase that trait, just the Bonus - so what does that Bonus do? What does having a very high Fel Bonus actually do for your character? I don't have the rules in front of me and I can't actually think of anything it applies to. Likewise the WP Bonus - Psykers use it for their powers, what would a Culexus do with it? Does it impact it's 'Blank' power?

Of course you could always give them new abilities that work off these Bonuses (much as the VA's dodge ability worked off the Agility Bonus). The power of its Animus Speculum blasts could be D10 + WP Bonus, for example, or the Callidus could shapeshift a number of times per day equal to her Fel Bonus.

macd21 said:

I don't know on the Callidus, personally. If it helped with opposed Deceive or Disguise vs. Perception tests. Slaanesh Daemons have it, so I thought it might do something, and Callidus Assassins have to be convincing mimics, even among such terrors as Orks, Eldar, and Chaos Cults.

For the Culexus, their Psychic Disruption radius is directly related to their WP bonus, so double the bonus means double the radius.

venkelos said:

Yeah, if there's no useful mechanics that are based on the Fel Bonus then there's no point giving it to the Assassin - you'd be better off giving them Fel based skills and talents. Or, as I mentioned before, you could base some of her special abilities off the bonus.

Something these field ratings and blanket negatives fail to take into account about a Temple Assassin, is that in a 1 v 1 of Assassin v Guy with Autogun, the Assassin should not be hit . That's their thing. Ranged weapon-fire shouldn't be touching them unless it's overwhelming or they trap the Assassin in a place they couldn't reasonably dodge ( a 4-foot wide corridor, or a doorway, for example). I would agree with a reaction cap of base AB and the auto-fail of 96+, but the other tactics sort of nerf the benefit of being a Temple Assassin in small scale engagements, when the Assassin isn't really meant to be engaged in large ones.

I'm fond of the idea of putting in a cumulative -10 or -20 per reaction used, so that he would auto-pass the first two or three shots, but if he's dumb enough to remain in the open while a dozen guards open up on him, he deserves to die.

macd21 said:

Unnatural reduces the difficulty of all Tests by 1 per multiple, no? So UF(x2) would make a Challenging Test into a Routine Test etc.

Fellowship Bonus determines how many people you can affect with a skill like Command.

bogi_khaosa said:

That's an optional rule, IIRC.

I just looked it up. It's not in core, but it's in the Inquisitor's Handbook, seemingly a clarification/expansion rather than optiona;.

Which BTW has the effect that anything with UA(x2) gets a +10 to Dodge.

Unnatural Stats have a beneift besides doubling the bonus. On opposed tests you achieve one extra degree of success per level of the Trait, so x2 adds one success. Bonuses for things like Fellowship can affect the number of people you influence. Intelligence can affect the number of woudns you heal. There are other examples.

In some of the later games it lowers the difficulty of regular tests by 1 degree per level of the Unnatural trait. For example it makes a challenging test (+0) at +10 test.

andrewm9 said:

Like I pointed out above, this rule is in DH, in the Inquisitor's Handbook.

Okay, I haven't actually played Ascension and to be honest I probably won't. But, Primaris Psykers and Temple Assassins are the deadliest of the Imperiums assets. Space Marine Commanders prefer not to tackle these guys one on one and a Vindicare should wipe the floor with a Space Marine Squad even in close combat. I think they got the Temple Assassin about right, I just don't think they should be PCs.

Zakalwe said:

Zak, I Love ya but, REALLY?? A whole squad? In close combat? Why would a player ever deploy a squad of SM's? Don't get me wrong! Temple assassins are bad! VERY bad! But getting into close combat with an Astartes squad is not going to work out well for the Assassin! (In 40k TT at least.) Nor should he be able to do that. An Assassin focuses on stealth and surgical precision. Getting into close combat should be something that happens by accident, Not design!

I think the easiest fix for all Ascension characters is to take all the Unnatural Abilities away. Problem solved for each and every one of them. Well, maybe not for Psykers, but then again you could state that all powers are based off your Psy Rating instead of your WP Bonus. I like simple and elegant.

I do agree that the Temple Assassin should have Unnatural Characteristics though, but to make Ascension work for every class to be on equal footing, no one should have them. :*(

Radwraith said:

Depending on the Assassin, it can work out that way. In the timeline in the 40k Rulebook, huge numbers of Astartes die attempting to shut down an Officio Assassinorum temple. An Eversor is sufficiently brutal and savage to triumph in such circumstances, for a start, while a Culexus' abominable nature makes him difficult for non-psykers to perceive (which is a huge advantage in combat). In any case, a Temple Assassin won't engage an enemy on their terms - even in close combat, the Assassin will be relying on mobility, evasion and precise, lethal blows to do the job.

Radwraith said:

Awwww, I never knew you felt that way, you say the nicest things :-)

Let me elaborate. I can only comment on the wargame through anecdotal evidence and my mates seem to be of the opinion that a temple assassin could, if not a Vindicare then definitely an Eversor (yep, I know I said 'vindicare'). Anyway, that wasn't really the point I wanted to get across. I think that the temple assassins are the best the Empire has, the preeminent killers and the most skillful fighters with the very best gear. However, while they may be the best fighters with the best gear, they perhaps havethe least freewill of all and are brainwashed/programmed/condiitoned to the point of being beyond PC material. And that was my point, that the vindicares aren't overpowered, I just don't think they are suitable as player characters.

Zakalwe said:

On a good day, I believe a fully trained Temple Assassin, from the fluff, not the TT, could and would wipe the floor with a squad of Space Marines. Certainly the Vindicare, from a hive spire away, could ping each off, and end their little quest, but if he did get into melee combat, he's still as strong as them (ish), faster than them by leaps and bounds, and trained to kill in a way even Space Marines can't compete with. He'd be jumping, cartwheeling around them, leaping off of their shoulders, breaking necks, and making nasty use of the Exitus PISTOL (it's so easy to forget that they carry those things, sometimes, but it's about as good as the rifle) in close combat. I know Space Marines are supermen, and much of how they work is to offset the limitations of power armor's bulk, but the Vindicare is practically Operative Legolas, and I don't think they'd have much luck touching him; more likely they'd clock each other, trying to strike him. And the other three are MORE melee-oriented than that. The Callidus IS one of them (one Marine down), and will almost certainly kill one of them in the surprise round, and then open up with the C'tan Phase Sword, which wiggles through armor and fields, right to the fleshy guy inside, again as strong as a Marine, and infinitely faster. With repeat feints and stabs, and the neural shredder being a cheese gun, they'll go down pretty quick. The Culexus will possibly have the hardest time, but with the shivers, headache, nausea, and confusion they sew, coupled with the fact that he's practically carrying a melta, they are going to hurt fuzzy-in-the-head Space Marines. Again, as strong, much quicker, cartwheel, ya-dee-dah. If one Marine is a Librarian, he just dies first round, looking at his antithesis. Finally, we hit my least favorite, the Eversor. He's the most melee-oriented, and with his high stats, nice drugs, and chipper demeanor, he has little to worry about. If they hit him, he won't feel it, but they probably won't hit him, and he tosses grenades like candy, and has some nasty weapons. He's a crazy, frenzied dervish of doom.

In the end, a Temple Assassin of any flavor is likely to polish off a group of Astartes; that's, in a way, what hey are made to do. If a force of Chaos Marines appears, and the Astartes are indisposed, a Temple Assassin could do fine. They also have elements of surprise and terrain, whether they look like the enemy to get close, or crash a lander on the group, to soften them up. Then you figure in their pure cheese Agility (practically an Eldar, minus the Unn. Agil.) and their best-end weapons, and they make Space Marines look like they often should; big, cumbersome, slow behemoths, men who can take a good hit, but can't succeed against a much faster, repeat assault of blows. This is all my opinion, of course, but I can't imagine a Space Marine who knows about these, and says "ah, whatever, we can take'em. We're Space Marines!"

As for Vindicare PCs, the book seemed to suffer a bit from "we must fit EVERY entry from Codex Daemonhunters in Ascension" syndrome. That's why Storm Troopers suck, and why all of the Inquisitor's retinue/henchmen choices are in there. Since the Assassins are in there, they gave us the most balanced of the set; a slightly superhuman super-sniper. Better than a psyker-buster (very situational, AND team-dynamic exclusive), a mimic (she's with the bad guys at the start of every mission), or a slavering mental patient trusted with grenades. I muchly appreciate access to the Inquisitor title, but beyond that, much of the classes are lackluster, or broken, and it's a shame, because it is one of my favorite books in Dark Heresy. Apparently, it was such a bad idea none of the other games have tried to emulate, but repair it; they start at a percentagely higher entry level, and you quit at Rank 8, or just keep playing, but never level up again (can always make more money, kill more baddies, and save more Sectors.

venkelos said:

I honestly don't think Ascension has anything to do with other games not getting an "epic level supplement". In my humble opinion, it has more to do with a fact that widening the scope of Rogue Trader or Deathwatch simply doesn't make much sense.

Rogue Trader starts out by giving you one of the highest titles a human can get in the Imperium, and makes expanding your political and financial reach the main motivation behind your actions. Plus, it lets you reach insanely high levels of both personal and political power. Where could the game go from there? What manner of endeavor cannot be handled by the base system? I know some people suggested gaining the title of a Warmaster and leading a new Crusade, but frankly, I think it can be done alright with rules as written.

Deathwatch has a different problem. While you could theoretically expand the scope of PC's responsibilities, there's little in-game justification for doing so. The nature of Deathwatch as a meta-Chapter makes it a temporary assignment for player characters most of the time, and the very role the Astartes play in the structure of the Imperium makes it difficult for them to wield any real political power. Plus, playing the game from the level of Chapter Master seems pretty boring - lots of micromanaging and infighting, little action, quite a big shift from the most action-oriented game line so far.

I suppose one day we may see a Black Crusade supplement detailing the running of the eponymous campaign. BC starts from a relatively high power level, but it doesn't give Heretics much political significance to go along with their personal prowess, and the GM's kit openly admits the game in it's current state is ill-prepared for running a full-scale Black Crusade.