True, but I find the DH method a bit more visceral in terms of combat than the new system, giving a crappy guy with 20-25 Bs some killing power with a full auto burst, rather than doing the contrary
11th Hour RPG-Day Demo
Anyone find it odd the bonus character commissar has a WP of 27?
A shining example of fearlessness… and she has about only a 25% chance to stick around in a fight against anything scarier than a ork.
Santiago said:
I think the Orgyns have Unnatural Strength and Toughness 2 and the Hulking Trait which grants about +5 wounds and size hulking.
Correct. They have superscript 6's above the 4's in Strength and Toughness.
The thing I find offensive though is the "How to play this character the way we see them" boxes. This is just crap filler taking up space that could be used for other, better things. They built the character, they gave us background, that is where it should end. Don't tell me how I should play a chacter.
ItsUncertainWho said:
Santiago said:
I think the Orgyns have Unnatural Strength and Toughness 2 and the Hulking Trait which grants about +5 wounds and size hulking.
Correct. They have superscript 6's above the 4's in Strength and Toughness.
The thing I find offensive though is the "How to play this character the way we see them" boxes. This is just crap filler taking up space that could be used for other, better things. They built the character, they gave us background, that is where it should end. Don't tell me how I should play a chacter.
Well they had something similar for the BC characters in that games bonus adventure. DW used that space to discuss the character's Demeanor, which while it is mechanical, is also something very much tied to how to role play a character. Going back to RT's bonus characters, they too had a short guide on how to play them.
This simply is for the fact that its entirely possible that these demo modules will be used to pull someone into table top RPGs for the first time, and honestly, it can sometimes be quite a transition for those who have not tried it. The information there can be fairly useful guidelines for how to get in character. I see no reason to be "offended" by the fact that they try to breath some life into these characters (instead of needlessly giving away more than what they need to about the content of the rule book. This is supposed to hook you, not reveal every single rule change/detail in OW).
Would you rather someone pick the commissar out of the hat, and play them up to be a fearful, lying, cheating scoundrel who orders people around to do their own tasks? Or that the Ogryn is in fact a noble gentlemen, who much prefers discussions on the finer points of politics, mathematics, and tea over the base act of braining someone with his ripper? Certainly, everyone can be their own special snowflake to a certain extent, but a level of respect for the source universe should be considered. I imagine the demo module is written with the idea in mind that the party is in fact not a bunch of snivelling cowards hoping to go AWOL at a moments notice, and the existing backgrounds like the ones provided for those characters helps.
KommissarK said:
Or that the Ogryn is in fact a noble gentlemen, who much prefers discussions on the finer points of politics, mathematics, and tea over the base act of braining someone with his ripper?
I see what you did there, Gar.
but yeah- those are simple basic guidelines for new players or thsoe unfamiliar with the capacity/mentality of ogryns, commissars and the like….else it<ll be a squad full of special snow flakes; nothing wrong with that mind you, just that it is not really a situation or a game where being special and unique is encouraged (I suspect) and it's more about falling in line, and the 'esprit de corps' of a regiment more than the individual trooper being cared about (as there's a few millions of you just waiting to be killed for the Emperor)
KommissarK said:
Well they had something similar for the BC characters in that games bonus adventure. DW used that space to discuss the character's Demeanor, which while it is mechanical, is also something very much tied to how to role play a character. Going back to RT's bonus characters, they too had a short guide on how to play them.
This simply is for the fact that its entirely possible that these demo modules will be used to pull someone into table top RPGs for the first time, and honestly, it can sometimes be quite a transition for those who have not tried it. The information there can be fairly useful guidelines for how to get in character. I see no reason to be "offended" by the fact that they try to breath some life into these characters (instead of needlessly giving away more than what they need to about the content of the rule book. This is supposed to hook you, not reveal every single rule change/detail in OW).
Would you rather someone pick the commissar out of the hat, and play them up to be a fearful, lying, cheating scoundrel who orders people around to do their own tasks? Or that the Ogryn is in fact a noble gentlemen, who much prefers discussions on the finer points of politics, mathematics, and tea over the base act of braining someone with his ripper? Certainly, everyone can be their own special snowflake to a certain extent, but a level of respect for the source universe should be considered. I imagine the demo module is written with the idea in mind that the party is in fact not a bunch of snivelling cowards hoping to go AWOL at a moments notice, and the existing backgrounds like the ones provided for those characters helps.
The character history sections should tell me all I need to know about that specific character. The "Playing" space could be used far more constructively for each of those characters. Define what an Ogryn is, tell me about the species, not the one I am supposed to play, let me play. If you want to help out a new to the universe player tell them what a Commissar is, what they do, what purpose they serve, not that this particular character is well liked, I still don't know what a Commissar is based on the character sheet.
How big is an Ogryn? How big is a Ratling? Those things need to be on a character sheet to tell an unfamiliar player what these creatures are. Far Larger and Far Smaller are not good descriptors. I qualify as Far Larger than the average man being 6' 5".
Telling me that my character wanders off at inopportune times or that I need to be overly aggressive due to the loss of a friend makes me think they are trying to force player actions in the demo mission more than add to the character background or let unfamiliar players understand anything. This type of information would be fine if these were NPC's for the GM to use. For players this just stomps on what a player brings to the game.
As for discussing politics and mathematics, the whopping 12 Intelligence should tell any player a lot about their character. Combine the 12 Int with the one and only line that tells me anything about Ogryn as a species, that they are slow and dim witted, should tell a player to not do what you suggested.
KommissarK said:
Anyone find it odd the bonus character commissar has a WP of 27?
A shining example of fearlessness… and she has about only a 25% chance to stick around in a fight against anything scarier than a ork.
Its also odd that she only has a BS 0f 27 as well. The schola teaches marksmanship and poor Zara is slightly better than the Ogryn when it comes to shootign things. Since semi-auto isn't likely to be as good as it was Dark Heresy, she had best be aiming that bolt pistol when trying to execute some poor slob.
Shooting is for guardsmen..commissars go on glorious charges (taking the guardsmen with them most of the time) to engage in melee!
Well, we're definitely back to Dark Heresy stats here.
Regarding the Commissar, I assume there will be no fear tests in the demo adventure, making her WP unimportant. In the full game, they'll likely be able to buy Fearless in short order, which inverts the effects of willpower - the lower it is, the less likely they are to (be able to) run away.
As for the "Playing X" notes, I agree with KommissarK: it's a demo adventure, it has to be playable for newbies as well. That allows for a certain number of hints on how to play a character.
@Braddoc
I much prefer the BC system. It returns a certain amount of sense to not spot-welding your trigger on full-auto and hitting stuff with a Single Shot is now as easy as it was with FA before (just use the other half action that you don't need anymore for aiming).
I suspect commissars start with Fearless from the get-go; as to reflect their Schola upbringing.
Cifer:
It might be easier to hit single shot and all, but I'd rather have a more tactically flexible weapon like an autogun or and automtic firing lasguns anyday of the week, but that's just my way of doing things (never liked sniping from a distance) I'd rather be able to hit multiple targets who hangs on close to eachother, the ability to suppress fire, burst or singleshot as well. The only drawback is the lack of accurate quality for single shots with a autogun/lasgun, but that little problem is compensated quite well.
@Braddoc
Just to note: Suppressive Fire is possible with semi-auto weapons as well now (the WP test to stand is -10 rather than -20) - another huge upgrade for the humble lasgun. In comparison to DH, where the autogun was just straight better than the lasgun, the lasgun has massively gained ground: Semi-Auto is no longer the scrappy attack with the downsides of both Single Shot and Full Auto rolled into one, Suppressive Fire is possible, by overcharging it you can get respectable damage values and it has a ridiculous ammo clip.
And for a Guard rpg, the Lasgun should be the weapon of choice.
Back then, the question whether something was a good weapon boiled down to 'has it Accurate or Full Auto? Neither? Ok, next…'
Truth be told, the BC dice mechanics for hits and multi weapon fighting does make the game more fun. I have played and run every game in the series from their release until now, and with the penalizing of full auto and the bonuses added to single I can say this:
The game's combat is a better beast for using these mechanics.
We have been using the dice rules out of BC since it came out and the game stays dangerous and lethal at low level and doesn't turn into the mid-high level creep problem of "I'm rolling against a 127 and cannot fail". I don't know if anyone else has noticed this in their games of non-BC but the characters always seem to get to a point that if a fight breaks out, they cannot fail unless every enemy is a Carnifex, alpha++ psyker, space marine, Land Raider, etc.
When that is the case, it is an easy slope to slide down where in your party just doesn't worry about being caught in a fight or resorting to one as plan A. I just don't find that fun or in the spirit of the universe (aside from space marines, but when they are talking to people they tend to be friendlies to the crusade or mission objectives).
I am excited to see this game come out, even more excited that it is not a DH supplement . If anything, I hope that we get a revamped version of DH in the next couple years to reflect the evolution of the game and mechanics (and the fact that it was raw and bleeding when black industries liscensed it to FFG). We hear so many complaints about game re-issues and I think it's garbage, I have gotten so much mileage out of these games that I certainly don't mind paying for it.
here here, FFG, thank you for giving me what I've wanted since Gaunt's Ghosts made me realize that this could work as a RPG
ItsUncertainWho said:
The character history sections should tell me all I need to know about that specific character. The "Playing" space could be used far more constructively for each of those characters. Define what an Ogryn is, tell me about the species, not the one I am supposed to play, let me play. If you want to help out a new to the universe player tell them what a Commissar is, what they do, what purpose they serve, not that this particular character is well liked, I still don't know what a Commissar is based on the character sheet.
How big is an Ogryn? How big is a Ratling? Those things need to be on a character sheet to tell an unfamiliar player what these creatures are. Far Larger and Far Smaller are not good descriptors. I qualify as Far Larger than the average man being 6' 5".
Telling me that my character wanders off at inopportune times or that I need to be overly aggressive due to the loss of a friend makes me think they are trying to force player actions in the demo mission more than add to the character background or let unfamiliar players understand anything. This type of information would be fine if these were NPC's for the GM to use. For players this just stomps on what a player brings to the game.
As for discussing politics and mathematics, the whopping 12 Intelligence should tell any player a lot about their character. Combine the 12 Int with the one and only line that tells me anything about Ogryn as a species, that they are slow and dim witted, should tell a player to not do what you suggested.
I don't think anyone would force you to play exactly how it is stated there, it is purely a guide that can be ignored by the more experienced.
As far as the previous post: I don't think the problem with almost guarunteed success is with the pre-BC rules. It is with the change of the cap to modifier from +/-30 to +/-60. With the original cap the best you could ever expect to get at any characteristic test was 95% (Roll maximum for stats, so 40. +20 for advancement, getting to 60. If you happened to have a homeworld bonus in the characteristic you could be at 65. Get the best possible positive modifier? That makes it 95%. Ok, skills are slightly different, as you could get a skill's base to 85% (65 max stat +20 in skill, and then really easy difficulty could get you to 115. Modifiers could get you higher, but then positive modifiers were much rarer with skill checks anyway, but that would max at 145… frankly, at that point why is the GM asking you to roll anyway? It is clearly an utterly, utterly trivial task). Of course, raise this by 5 for RT, so I guess you could get a 100% chance in combat (but then 96-100 is a miss anyway, lower if using full or semi auto), and another 5% in Deathwatch. Deathwatch had a particularl problem that it became incredibly trivial to get more and more bonuses, to the extent that getting the maximum +60 was quite easy, especially when facing hordes.
Braddoc said:
True, but I find the DH method a bit more visceral in terms of combat than the new system, giving a crappy guy with 20-25 Bs some killing power with a full auto burst, rather than doing the contrary
I see your point and, to be fully honest, I don't know which approach is better.
In DH full-auto attacks were good to put some power in low level characters, but quickly became a overkill at high levels.
In BC full-auto has become a tool for high level characters only, since the penalties are a big problem for anyone else.
Unfortunalty the best way would be to give semi-auto and full-auto bursts different modifiers based on range (as in Cyberpunk 2020), but this will require an extra level of complications that doesn't fit the design phylosophy behind the 40k system (kinda of the pityful range of sniper weapons).
a RT Explorator could easily roll 100+ for Tech-Use at Rank 1 if he choose the correct origin path and placed a good roll in INT as well.
By the way, since this hasn't been said yet … THANKS FFG! I greatly appreciate the extra PCs for the demo.
borithan said:
These are intended to attract new players into the game. Not just new to the system, but new to RPGs. If you have never played 40k rpg before, you wouldn't necessarily know how the stats scale, and so Intelligence 12 doesn't help that much as a guide ("I guess it means I am a bit thick, as it is lower than everyone else's. But how dumb is Intelligence 12?"). Now, to someone who knows the system (and the 40k background), it is clearly really really dumb, but that is not necessarily that clear to those that don't. And if they are a person who has never roleplayed before? Intelligence 12 tells them nothing . They don't have that grounding in RPG mechanics that would allow them to make even the barest of judgements. Ok, they might guess it means thicker than someone with a higher stat (but that isn't always a given in every RPG system), but they have no way to judge how thick or how clever that makes them, or what kind of character would result.
When the "Playing the Commissar" box reads like a dating profile, I have to take issue with it.
LETE said:
Based on that it looks likely the Orks will be one of the major foes. Woot!
Did anyone notice the daft special ability of the Heavy Flamer character? Target Selection? Really? With a flame weapon as their primary weapon? Ok, she does have a laspistol she could use it with, but it just seems a ridiculous ability for that character (the Ratling also has it, but then that makes more practical sense). A friend of mine did suggest it was a deliberate joke, but it did just leap out to me as silly.
I know this is an "Out there" idea for some but will Eleventh Hour be avaliable for download? I live in Australia just south of Sydney and i was surprised to see NO RETAILERS IN MY AREA are having a free RPG day. I've been waiting for about 2-3 months just to get a glimpse of this and am really bummed that I don't even get the intro booklet like everyone else
Also is there an official release date for Only War, I'm sick of running DH Guardsmen statted and geared to fight I wanna get my hands on this ASAP
Although as stated above, thanks for the characters from 11th hour, now I just need the rules to play them
They usually publish it online a week or so after the release for Free RPG Day. Expect to see it soon.
I was so happy that we can play Ogryns in Only War… until I saw their stats. 17 wounds?! It must be a joke. Strenght and toughness bonus of 6 when SM have 8?! So now Ogryns are just slighty bigger and stronger humans. Were people responsible for creating their stats even bothering to read some fluff about Ogryns? I can only hope that in full game that idiocy will be corrected.
@Shadow Walker,
Do mind that they must consider game balance and that ogryns are not genetically engineered super soldiers but just evolved humans.
The average human can lift some 74kg or 163lbs, according to the ogryn in EH the average starting ogryn can lift almost 500lbs, that is a lot more.
The character in in EH is a starting Ogryn, it wouldn't surpirse me if they could buy more unnatural strength and I'm sure they can buy more strength.
Judging by the stats Ogryns have a starting strength of 30+2d10 and according to the sheet they can buy another +30, for the sake of argument lets say +20.
The same goes for Toughness.
So an advanced Ogryn, a veteran, could have a strength and toughness of 70, add the unnatural stats to it and our ogryn could lift almost 6000lbs.
So I think they did a good job thus far…
I do not agree about need of nerfing them to balance against other specialities.Each one has its niche to fulfil. Storm Trooper is a beast when its come to all things special forces are for but he will probably suck at inspiring troops. Thats why you have Commissar and Ministorum Priest. And we have the same case with Ogryns. They are huge brutes that can beat even Ork Warboss [see Nork Deddog in latest Imperial Guard codex]but in all other things they will suck because they are dumb. This is exactly how they are balanced toward other specialities and thats is why they stats should not be nerfed. They should be as they are in fluff because strenght and toughness are what they excel at.