Above the Sorrows

"When revealed, discard the top card of each opponent's deck. Then, if this is your revealed plot card, trigger the "when revealed" effect of the top River plot card in your used pile."

At the Palace of Sorrows

"When revealed, each player chooses a card in play which he or she controls and puts the chosen card on top of its owner's deck. Then, if this is your revealed plot card, trigger the "when revealed" effect of the top River plot card in your used pile."

So over the weekend I learned something new while playing John Bruno (mathlete) and I wanted to bring it here so people understand the the ruling. Maybe I am the only person that was getting it wrong.

The way I was playing it was when I revealed At the Palace of Sorrows I would have my opponents choose a card in play to place on top of their deck, including myself, then have my opponent discard it to trigger the Above the Sorrows plot effect.

I was told / we examined the frame action windows and as you can see the "morribound" card does not get place on top of the deck till Step 6, after the action of discarding the top card of your deck.

I was little frustrated by that but I guess I understand now. I guess I was treating as the following:

At the Palace of Sorrows

"When revealed, each player chooses a card in play which he or she controls and puts the chosen card on top of its owner's deck."

This is the plot phase effect that must be fulfilled.

Then, if this is your revealed plot card, trigger the "when revealed" effect of the top River plot card in your used pile."

This is a separate plot phase effect that has its own action windows.

Thanks John for showing me the ruling.

GrugalM said:

Just to double check, because it's a then, it's still all part of the same Framework action window, right? So they would both happen (assuming the "Then" happens), before you triggering passives & responses to the whole kit & caboodle (it's just fun to type that)? Kind like the ruling:

(3.38) Saving from "Then" Effects
Any "Then" effect that would remove a character from play creates a special opportunity for players to play “save” responses to the terminal “Then” effect. Only save responses can be played during this special opportunity.

Maester_LUke said:

Let's say this happens: It is the first round. One player reveals "Above the Sorrows" and another reveals "At the Palace of Sorrows." Since there are no "River" plots in anyone's used pile yet, we can agree that the "then" parts of these two effects don't mean anything.

BUT - if the First Player says At the Palace of Sorrows resolves first, then Above the Sorrows, is the card that was in play and returned to the deck the one that is discarded? No. The card that leaves play for the first plot is moribund and still physically on the table when the second plot forces the discard. That's the interaction (it's not really a "ruling"; it's just the way that the rules are applied in the situation), regardless of whether the two plot effects are initiating as separate passives (as in the example I just outlined) or as a single passive effect (as in the original example where Above the Sorrows is the top used River plot when At the Palace is revealed).

It really has nothing to do with the "then" effect. It has to do with the fact that since the effects are part of the same action window, the moribund card has not been physically moved to the top of the deck when the discard effect resolves.

Thanks Maester_LUke and ktom.

ktom said:

Maester_LUke said:

The Framework Action Window goes as follows (FAQ p. 18):

1. Framework Event Initiates

2. Save/Cancel

3. Framework Event Resolves

…Then on to next Framework Event and so on until you reach the end of the Framework Action Window….

4. Passive Abilities (Now Triggered) Are Resolved.

5. Responses

6. End of Action. Moribund Cards Leave Play.

Maester_LUke said:

Remember that "when revealed" plots are actually passive effects (otherwise, where would they resolve when they are revealed with a card effect like Bran or a Rookery?). How to resolve them is detailed in an FAQ entry. Since they are passives, they are separate effects with their own "initiate-save/cancel-resolve" sequence to go through before the next passive does. So since the order matters in terms of "initiate and resolve," that same order will matter for save/cancel opportunity (which, of course, has to interrupt the initiation and resolution).

But even if the plots were not resolved as passives, they would be separate framework events within the same gray-box FAW (not separate FAWs). And, as Amuk points out, you cycle through the "initiate-save/cancel-resolve" sequence for each framework event, then move on to a common passive, response, end for all of them. So, as is true for the "separate passives" analysis, each plot has a separate initiation and resolution (meaning they also have a separate save/cancel opportunity), and the order will matter.

Yes, if At the Gates is resolved before Valar Morghulis, Wendamyr (Aemon works as well) will be in play when Valar Morghulis initiates, so his response will be available during the save step for VM.

oh, I was playing this river combo wrong just like the OP. Thanks for pointing it out making this thread

What about the new river plot: Pulled from the Rhoyne with the text:

When revealed, each player returns the top character in his or her dead pile to the top of his or her deck. Then, if this is your revealed plot card, trigger the "when revealed" effect of the top River plot card in your used pile.

Slothgodfather said:

ktom said:

This is what I was missing. And a random take of this, anything leaving play as a cost (the Sea reducers) go moribund in Step 1?

Maester_LUke said: