If the venomous blade is attached to my character and i die do i still put the card back in shadows based on the response or does this get discarded. We have been playing using the former ?

Daenarys said:

If I'm reading the timing rules right…

Even if the character the Blade is attached to is killed for Military Claim (made moribund:dead pile), there is an oppertunity to respond to loosing the challenge before he actually leaves play, so yes, it can go back to shadows.

KristoffStark said:

It seems you are not reading the timing rules right…

Remember, when resolving a challenge, it is:

1. Determine winner
2. Settle claim
3. Award unopposed
4. Award renown
5. Passives to anything (and everything) that happened in 1-4
6. Responses to anything (and everything) that happened in 1-5

The character dies in #2. The attachment is discarded as a result of the character being killed in #5. Responses - and the first opportunity you get to return the Blade to Shadows - is in #6. Since the attachment is already gone in #5, the Response in #6 comes too late to return it to Shadows.

It is very common for people to want to play Responses for #1 before #2, Responses to #2 before #3, and so on. But that is an incorrect understanding and interpretation of the timing rules.

ktom said:

But I thought that cards attached to moribund cards didn't actually become moribund themselves until the attached cards left play?

And while mil claim characters become moribund in step 2 (challenge results implimented), those characters wouldn't actually leave play until the framework window closes, right? As per the framework action window diagram, which ends "moribund cards leave play", after the Responses oppertunity.

KristoffStark said:

Remember, for the purposes of when it is legal to initiate passives and trigger responses, the moribund card is considered to have already left play. As far as discarding the attachment goes, "becomes moribund" and "left play" are the same thing.

KristoffStark said:

Yeah, I was screwed up on the timing of a moribund card's attachments becoming moribund, rather than the timing of responses to becoming moribund or to the framework order. But yeah, the answer is, "Sorry, Venomous Blade is already moribund:discard pile" when the oppertunity to play it's Response comes up, and that's no good, since a moribund card's destination cannot be changed."

Ok, i think i am now clear on the timings etc but what happens when a character like Viserys is used to satisfy a military challenge. Isnt he using a passive effect and therefore cannot come back from moribund. At what phase would he be saved ?

Daenarys said:

I assume the Viserys you're referring to is the one that says: "Response: Save Viserys Targaryen from being killed or discarded from play, then return him to his owner's hand."

If that is the case, this is how it would go.

During Claim resolution, you choose him to die.
Before he becomes moribund:dead pile however, there is an oppertunity to initiate Save/Cancel effects. If you do, by activating his Response, you save him from the kill, so he never enters the moribund:dead pile state at all. However, then the "then" part of his ability takes place, and he does become moribund:hand .

In fact, there is no passive ability involved, just two different parts to his Response.

KristoffStark said:

Fantastic, we have been playing this way but wanted to check.

There is a group of us wishing to play tournaments soon and therefore we wanted to be clear on rulings before we take the plunge.