yeah, the deck i'm currently working on uses the chthonian stone. if it works then i'll try to shock transform a dhole ant lion into play and when he finally wounds out he can get replaced by a cost 3 character. still a long way to go on that one though.

Actually the meta game is focused on removing opponent characters from play : bounce (st faction), destruct + wound (cthulhu, agency, hastur,yog)

Some few decks can compete zhen they add a lot of characters to counter this strategy

So in a lot of game, you don't care of struugle because there is only 1 side with characters !

Glimpse of the Void

Ever since I got my clocked cleaned by this card at regionals, I have been thinking about it. I'd like to get some other opinions on this card, and if you think it's good for the game.

If you aren't familiar with this deck type, it essentially uses recursion cards to play Glimpse of the Void every single turn. What that means is, unless you can break this cycle, there will essentially be no story phases for the entire game once it begins. This is what happened at our regional event. In the two games I played against it, I sat and did nothing until I drew myself out.

The deck was only played versus a small sample size, but you can see that if you can't break its cycle, it's quite powerful versus a majority of deck types.

So, how can you counter it? The trick I think is having a counter, while not gimping your deck against all the other deck types.

• Snow Graves - clearly helpful, however 'Glimpse' decks will be running heavy support removal. In my games versus this deck, my Snow Graves were destroyed instantly when played. Perhaps Marcus Jamburg?
• Forgotten Shoggoth - this will block all of the decks discard effects, but will not help you from drawing out.
• Power Drain - blocking one or two Glimpse could be enough to get you a win.
• Dreamlands Messenger/Voice in the Jungle - would totally shut down this deck.

So what do you guys think? Will you be taking this card into consideration when you deck build from now on?

badash56 said:

When I heard of this deck, I thought that the best solution would be to recur more and better, and to cancel. Hastur/Yog, (with Snow Graves, of course.) Power Drain and Writhing Wall with the Time and Space Yog can go a long way to stop this deck, and still maybe be flexible enough to manage the other types of decks.

badash56 said:

Glimpse of the Void can be a problem card for sure. Its use can be a clear sign of the meta potentially shifting from struggles at stories and into more complicated combinatorial mechanisms.

Especially when it is easily played every turn through the use of The Large Man . This causes an aberrant cycle to occur that blocks out a key mechanism for even playing the game.

Snow Graves is likely the best counter to this, but since Glimpse is a Shub card, you will likely not have Snow graves in play for long. Having a Guardian of the Key handy can prevent Snow Graves from being targeted, but is a very inefficient combo.

So this requires more intense discard pile manipulation than Snow Graves denies or the removal of the trigger that causes it to recur. Sadly most of these answers are in the Shub faction like The Stone on the Peak or the Dreamlands messenger/Voice of the Jungle combo you speak of (early enough before being locked out of the story phase). Not much can be done to stop triggered effects from events unless you include Hastur somewhere ( Writhing Wall , Power Drain ) .

While I enjoy cards such as Glimpse in the game to allow exploration of potential facets not currently seen, it was a card designed at the cancellation of the CCG and there never was a decent counter, that I noticed at least, ever printed for it. If it was errataed to say "Remove this card from the game after this card is resolved." or some such, I wouldn't have a problem with the card at all.

But I avoid playing this card and do not often see it being played. I think if I had a recursion mill deck with this card in it, my GF who is my main gaming partner would stop playing the game due to how unfun it would become with a lack of accessible answers to Glimpse.

Hellfury said:

Hellfury I think you hit the nail on the head with that post. The main issue I have with this card is its potential to just take the other player out of the game entirely unless they specifically plan for it. It doesn't sound like a healthy situation to have in a competitive card game. After seeing it first hand I'm not sure I'd play in another tournament without taking it into serious consideration.

Kellen and I are convinced it is bad for the game, and will never use it again in public. But it had to be done to convince ourselves that it wasn't just broken in in-house testing.

A Hastur negation deck is the closest thing to stopping it in our multiple rounds of exploration. I even beat the deck 1 time with enough Power Drains and rapid story taking. But only once.

Oh, and Foiled, as a support card, doesn't last very long against that deck - don't forget the support destruction that can recurse with ease.

I think Forgotten Shoggoth is the most effective counter at this point… until a nice "draw X cards" instead of "discard X cards" card can be incorporated. Dark Sarcophagus is a good option to add ( plus changing Red Gloved Man to Ol' Lazy Eyes).

badash56 said:

My immediate question would be, what is the recursion mechanic used to bring it back every turn?

I am not - yet - convinced that this is game-breaking, although I have admittedly not played directly against a fine-tuned Glimpse deck. There are a number of significant mitigating factors, primarily that you can only have three in a deck (obviously), and therefore requires a recursion mechanic, which in effect means one or more other cards working together to bring it back out of the discard pile every turn. And it's a cost 4. At a minimum, it won't be showing up until several turns into the game, and even then, there's no guarantee the recursion mechanic will be in place to keep it coming back every turn, and a lot can happen in that time.

If the recursion mechanic is The Large Man, all that requires is character removal, of which there is plenty. If it's the T'tka Halot, that requires either support or attachment removal, of which there is plenty. If it's Yog-Sothoth [new], then the other player should have plenty of time to get his board set up and be ready for it when it hits.

I'm not sure panic is in order, given that this deck has yet to win any regionals to my knowledge, let alone a world championship. It may be frustrating to play against, but it can't be any less frustrating than having every character that comes out of your hand get Khopeshed or Initiated. That Cthulhu's Deep Ones/Serpents/Khopesh combo may actually have serious competition is probably, overall, a good thing for the game.

This deck did win the Philly area regional. See results here: Jenkintown Regionals

The recursion engine was Gathering at the Stones, Speak to the Dead, Elder Thing, (and Stone on the Peak for assist).

Building to 4 resources was enhanced by Feed Her Young mostly, but also Harvesting Mi-Go, supported by Speak to the Dead and All Are One.

Negotium gave some time to build up the resources as well.

Runix said:

It doesnt rely on just the Large Man. That was merely used as an example, albeit a strong one.

Removal is fine, if you can draw into it… While you are sitting there hoping that you draw into a removal card powerful enough to deal with it, you are just as likely to miss it as you are being milled. A lot. In other words you are just as likely to draw the removal as you are to miss it. Not good odds for a archetype deck that relies on that to nurture its win condition.

There is no interaction with Yog-Sothoth Lord of Time and Space as he affects only event cards with the Spell subtype, which Glimpse does not share.

I do not think it is time to push the panic button either. But it doesn't take enormous amounts of playtesting to see if there is not easily accessible answers to a card that not only takes away an entire phase of a turn, but a phase of a turn that 95% of decks rely on to win games, and can recur in a variety of ways with little if any drawback or cost, that this is a problem card and should be dealt with in a more stern manner by the designers than most cards get adjusted by.

It was just a matter of time before this card reared its head yet again, only this time in the LCG format where it does not appear to be adjusted very well for that format when reprinted.

I personally want to see more cards like this for the game, as the combinations are interesting. But when those combinations lack decent answers unless you play X type of cards, then such cards quite literally break the game. But then again mayhaps I am just missing the easily accessible answer and I am blabbing on about nothing at all whatsoever.

OK, thanks for the explanation, that makes sense.

I think the most effective counters may be of the "unwanted help" variety. Stone on the Peak is one idea - while the Glimpse deck does have support destruction, it would only take getting the Stone out and using its action once or twice to throw a wrench in the recursion machine. Support fishing and support protection are both available, so it's entirely possible to get a Stone out and keep it running multiple turns.

Likewise, Blackmoor Estate could be handy, for putting additional milling pressure on that would require the Glimpse player to use up resources in running his own Stone on the Peak to keep from getting milled out of play. Could also make things difficult for the Elder Thing.

Overall, though, the best response would be anything that negates actions. The simple problem in the game right now - which the Glimpse deck ably exploits - is that there just isn't much of that available. I think that, rather than running to FFG crying for a ban or restriction, the best answer is to use existing draw/discard/counter-action abilities, while putting in a request for more abilities to negate actions in future Asylum packs.

Hellfury said:

I agree, and as stated above, I think it's a good thing that this is knocking the game out of its current character-destruction rut.

I absolutely think players should have to prepare for it. Events, discard pile fishing, and milling are all legitimate mechanics, and players should have to prepare for them (skipping the story phase, debatable - but then, there are any number of abilities that require individual characters to sit out a story phase, and Negotium arguably has a similar effect).

To gripe about having to anticipate a deck such as this one is, in my mind, like griping about having to anticipate a deck with character flooding, or character removal, or whatever. It's there, it's a legitimate tactic, and players should have to think about anticipating it. I don't think it should be acceptable for players to stack their decks full of characters and destruction and then cry when clever use of events ruins their day, any more than it should be acceptable for players to stack their decks full of combat and then cry when insanity ruins their day.

Again, the main problem, if there is one, is simply that players don't have enough options to counter actions and discard pile fishing. I suspect Hastur could shut this down fairly readily with Power Drain, Writhing Wall, etc. - but then, such a deck could be vulnerable to the usual Cthulhu Deep One flood, and so forth, which could set up an interesting paper/scissors/rock situation.

Runix said:

Well, the issue to me is the way the deck operates. A heavy rush or kill deck like you say can be tough if you don't expect it, but you still have a chance to play cards and attempt to get stories, even if it's an uphill battle. This deck just shuts down the game for the other player. Anything you do is counter productive. In my finals match I had actually considered just resourcing my initial cards, and just sit and do nothing but draw 2 and pass. Just to hope that he might draw out before me.

Now let me be clear, no one at the tournament was mad or upset about this deck. The point here is not to complain about this, but get discussion going if this is a good direction for the game.

I think the biggest concern about this deck is that it is absolutely not fun to play against. I have no problem knowing I'm going to lose a match when I see what's coming, but I still want to have an active hand in the round, not just while away the time until the game is over.

won't know till it faces it, but i THINK my latest deck has an ok chance against glimpse of the void, without being designed primarily to beat it.

the trick i believe is snow graves and ( as hellfury read my mind and pointed out ) guardian of the key, also with elder thing scavenger. being Yog / Shub of course ( which i'm trippin' didn't make it to Portland - but that's ok, the less around the better ).

i've been quietly playtesting this deck ( in forum under circuit breaker ) for a couple of months now ( to combat glimpse and m.jamburg ) and its shaping up to be ok. still refining though ( and funnily enough just posting it brought about a massive change after reading through it in print ). any opinions on whether this may be successful ( and the deck itself ) are really really REALLY welcome ( probably have to increase SG / GotK to x 3 though - still in test ).

If someone can effectively remove the entire story phase for the rest of the game, and there are only a handful of cards that can protect against it, then that's a problem in my view.

This is considerably different from something like character rush because tons of cards can help with that, plus you can still play your game. In this case, you can't play your game and if you didn't specifically include one of the few cards that fight it then you're fairly stuck.

This certainly bears close scrutiny and testing. I like the idea of the card, but not the fact that it's repeatable turn after turn. I'd rather see an errata to remove it from play after playing it than banning, because it is a good avenue for the game to explore.

I assume it is in a discard deck?

There are cards that attack the hand and they of course would wreck a deck like this since it is so reliant on a single card. Removing the event from hand forces them to dig deeper into their own deck while you rack up success tokens.

I think there are enough ways to get rid of this card/combo that there is little need to worry now that we are all aware of it. I think the NOT being aware of it was probably one of the reasons it won the Philly regional. Not to say it isn't a dangerous deck, but if you don't know what you are facing when you are playing, let alone what you may face when you are building your deck, you leave yourself open.

Now that we know about it we can make play and deck adjustments that give us better chances of defeating it.

Now some more cancel (especially in Miskatonic and Syndicate) could certainly help out against this deck type, and generally make the destruction style decks less sure in their dominance. Every deck should have a fair way of countering it in the meta, though not necessary represented in every fashion.

I personally plan on taking the wait and see approach. Wait and see if the deck appears and performs well at Gencon, Liege, and Worlds, and then see if new cards come out that make the deck less of a dangerous match up for at least a couple of factions. IF it is still an issue by the end of this cycle then I would support either errata or restriction if it is seriously warping the meta.

I agree with Penfold, I think a wait-and-see attitude is probably best.

Is this a healthy direction for the game? I think so, as it has opened up milling as a viable strategy, as well as shown how powerful some of the more obscure card combinations can be. I think the deck works as a proof of concept that complex card combinations can actually work; with the right level of control over the game, you can do some amazing things.

An unhealthy direction for the game would be an emergency ban of the card. That just sends all the wrong messages: that too many wins gets a card banned, that characters/destruction are the "right" way to play the game, and that players shouldn't get clever or the banhammer is coming. Those are the wrong messages to send.

Again, if there needs to be a fix, it should be in giving the factions some more power to cancel actions (I think there's plenty of support removal by now). If the situation is completely unacceptable given the current mix of cards, an errata to remove the card from the game after use would be OK, but again, I would wait and see before making that move.

Penfold said:

That's a good thought. Maybe now we'll see Byakhee Attack make a comeback in some of the top decks?

Penfold said:

I definitely don't want to see a kneejerk reaction. The situation bears watching and testing, but at this point no more than that. There may be more ways to beat it, or it may turn out to be not as good as previously though. Too many working parts making it brittle, etc… It did well against people who weren't aware of it, but the real test is whether people who ARE aware of it can come up with enough ways to defeat this type of deck.

i also like how it expands the meta, but agree it's only a good thing if all factions have a somewhat reasonable way of countering it. mill is a cool strategy though. grantbabb played it to several victories at the portland regional. i looked over at him while playing my match and saw his opponent had a LOT of cards on the table and it looked like he was getting crushed. afterward i checked in with him and he WON that match since his opponent helped the mill out by being a badass overwhelming force deck. i like seeing stuff like that.

piszcadz said:

I assume it had something to do with Curse of the Stone . It is a hell of a card.

Isn't the easiest counter to milling to just add some more cards to your deck?

ssjevot said:

Well, that can slow down the outcome, of course, but it also makes your deck less effective because it is diluted with the extra cards. Also, in the case of this deck, with recursion, it just means a few more turns until you lose. Remember that with Glimpse of the Void, you don't get a story phase, so all you are really doing is waiting to lose with nothing else to do. It might be better to get the game over with quicker so you can get to a different opponent and actually play the game.

I just noticed something interesting related to Glimpse of the Void. It makes Dhole Ant-Lions (also a Shub card) better.

Normally, at the end of each story phase you have to either wound Dhole Ant-Lion or sacrifice a character. Using Glimpse, the story phase never happens so the Dhole Ant-Lion's drawback never triggers.

Probably not a huge deal, as without a story phase his usefulness is limited - just a neat interaction I stumbled on.