Hi all,

As I've been playing and reading the forums, I started getting the impression that the Germans are truely under powered. I mean, the lazers are only good against tanks and only if you successfull hit with one of them. While the phasers will eat up everthing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a overcharged phaser attack will out put 6 hits and a possible 12 damage that ignores armor. This is arguably better. Sure its ranger is much shorted and you are always in reaction range if you wanna fire. But, overall, its seems that the American fire power just trumps the Axis.

The rest balances out though:

Americans: Faster and have jump infantry

Axis: Damage resistance and better range

But, when you get into the game, the americans seem to nerf the germans range by being so much faster and they pack such a bunch that the damage resistance armor is moot. Even the zombies panzerfists are not as scary as the American Rocket punch.

Then where is the advantage of the Germans? I think its in the tanks! In all the games I've played, I only had the hans, and I always played it wrong. But, then I finally noticed all its special rules its weapons have. Then I figured, well myabe I need to compare. This is what I found:

Germans have, on average, cheaper walkers. They also have the option of taking additional walkers, if they take the platoon upgrade. So, points allowing, in a medium sized game, the Germans could bring 6 walkers to the Allies 4. This is huge when coupled with their reduced points. Then you have their weapons. The American walkers are faster and more mobile for sure. But, the medium axis walkers have better range then most American walkers and they seem to put out more point for point damage. Plus they have that niffty close combat attack and the charge rule which is not bad if you wanna rush the lines.

This is not a conclusive assesment. I've not played more then 3 games maybe. But, its based on my obversations, I think that more toys are needed for my German based games to go more smoothly. Simply put, I need more tanks! Who wouldn't want that?!

This entire rant excludes the disgusting Angelica joining a sniper team combo. I mean really, they are feffing dirty! And it also excludes the Herman Light Walker, with its LazerKannon of derp. That's one walker I just don't feel carries its points, which is sad cause it looks so cool.

And the Axis have accessibility to 2 full platoon options that ignore suppression.

The German tanks are superior to Aliied tanks, even with the allies having turrets and jump abilities. The Germans have the Blitzkrieg order which is the best special platoon order in the game and platoon upgrade to make fast reserves… They have better platoon upgrades period, IMO. They have the ability to bring dead soldiers back to life, not only through using medics, but by using zombie juice. Damage resilient is never "moot". They can use a platoon upgrade that puts a unit as "dug in" to help deal with those airdrops. They have cheaper heavy walkers making it easier to fit them into most lists (if you have a heavy walker and your opponent doesn't… look out!). They have the units that are nearly un-suppressable (not really a word but you get my point). My heavy laser grenadiers routinely put 4-12 damage onto enemy tanks on average, so I don't see the problem with them that other people have…. THEY ARE NOT FOR INFANTRY! You don't use Allied Bazookas for killing soldiers either but they are still good. Try to deal with Heavy Recon Grenadiers with Lara attached and tell me they are not nasty to allied soldier units… the list goes on and on and on.

Could I go on and on and on about allies as well? Sure. Are phasers awesome? Sure…. But they seem a heck of a lot more awesome to players that don't read the table properly and plan things out so that they have reaction available to deal with them as soon as they move into phaser range. You have to know how to position your units on the table. .. Which units to put with which units… which soldiers to keep protecting "flanks and tanks" ( a term which I use quite regularly in games). How to pair units together to complement each other to help keep the phasers from just getting up close and annihilating you, etc, etc.

I find that the axis win just as many games as the allies, and for a beginner, I think they should win more as many newbie players just can't come to grips with how to get a unit like "the Hammers" or the BBQ squad close enough to do anything without being ripped to pieces by fire. This takes proper planning and the proper pairing of units to complement each other as I mentioned earlier.

It makes the game incredibly balanced. I am amazed at how balanced this game is after playing many games as both sides. How one particular weapon or unit could seem at first glance to be overpowered but then the person using them loses the game anyway , for example. It is the reason that I agree with many other people that this is the best overall ruleset that I have ever played in my 16 years of wargaming.

There's my two pesos anyway.

I totally agree with that assessemnt. This game is one of those rare gems that is atually far more balanced then it looks. On paper, a lot of this stuff seems unimpressive but, when you play it you'll find that it works very well.

My OP was basically to the point that the people who think germans were bad need to rethink their stance a bit. I notice that some of the forums and some of the people I"ve spoken too might be misinformed. I speak from experience on that one, cause I too thought the Germans were under impressive when you compared them to the Allies. But, I was woefully wrong. The Axis have some really nifty toys.

Angelic is probably the only thing that scares me. At this point, I'm not sure how to feel about snipers. They feel way too good for the points. But, I've only played one game with them so far, so only exp will tell.

i have played and won games with both sides. You have to use them properly. Each unit has a specific purpose. Take a look at the german monkey boys. They can be devastating in hand to hand. Especially combined with the fast move.

Good read guys ,Thanks. would anyone like to post a sample army list and suggest how to use it for any new axis generals looking to improve thier game.

Snipers are fantastic… no denying that. But even with Angela, there are only 3 of them and only 2 with snipers with the other having a lackluster 16" range. Even though 16" range is the norm, if your snipers are within 16" of your opponent, they are usually in trouble. Even in cover (which would count as hard cover because of the "team" rule), they have small numbers and don't take much to suppress. They are a lot more potent going first tan second as they can at least get the first shot off in the command phase. In the end, though they are tough, they will only usually kill one guy each turn which I can live with and will usually ignore them or play keep away. The biggest mistake your opponent can do is deploy his snipers early on… you can just deploy away from them. In the end if you have 1 sniper in a squad with 36" range, that is still only one dice and no guarantee of killing anyone… and then of course if you keep your command squad medics where they can be of best use, you always have a chance of bringing him back. When it works really well (if the battlefield layout and deployment allows it) is when you are fortunate enough to be able to have a mechanic 6" back to deal with tank repairs in the rear and the medic 6" forward to deal with the "healing dudes" on the front lines with the unit leader in the middle, you have a command squad that is essentially spaced out 12" apart and can deal with a lot of things with their 2 actions, that really helps. It is not always possible, but when it works out, it is a fantastic feeling. Snipers are really really good, but just like any other unit in the game they are not the "win now" button. Just one more good unit when used to their potential and one more unit that is good at their job. Let's see them deal with an airdropping BBQ squad… Can they shot enough of the BBQ squad before they close in and easily wipe the sniper squad right out in one volley, even with Angela attached… because in the end, the BBQ squad is really good at their job too. They are just as terrifying and demand immediate respect the first time they barrel towards your front lines with that 18" move.

Those are my 2 somolians anyway.

New England AT-43! (Alternate Timeline 1943) said:

I will give it a go. Okay, for new players I always suggest to keep out the heroes at first for two reasons. It is easier to get the basic rules down first before adding in the special rule unit buffs granted by heroes, and secondly, to demonstrate to them how important it is to have a proper command squad leading a platoon as opposed to a hero with the "leader" ability. You just should always have a mechanic, medic and radioman in every army. Plus, it allows the use of adding Snipers in your support slot. So for the new axis general I have suggest maybe a simple single platoon, 200 point list to get started with(Since I normally play 300-350 this is my first 200 list. I'm sure others could come up with great one at this level). I have left out gorillas and zombies as I personally prefer not to game with them as it ruins some of the realism to me, so I will leave others to make those lists. You can certainly compete with axis armies that do not use supernatural units.

Sturmgrenadiere Platoon

Command section- Kommandotrupp

1st section- Heavy Flak Grenadiers

2nd section- Battle Grenadiers (Panzer Killers upgrade)

3rd section- Recon Grenadiers

4th section- Heavy Laser Grenadiers

Support- "Ludwig"

"Heinrich"

"Sniper Grenadiers"

Platoon upgrade: Defenses

=200 AP

I chose 2 heavy armoured units to go with 2 light armoured units so they can support each other. You put the soldier 3 units in front of the soldier 2 units. Since you can shoot through friendly models you are good in that respect and then the opponent has to either shoot at the damage resistant 4 armour save behemoths or if they try to shoot at the "squishier" soldier 2 units behind, the soldier 2 units will get cover from the guys in "Mk1 Iron man suits" in front. Heavy Flak Grenadiers can take advantage of their bust abilities and dig enemy units out of cover and combat knives are no joke for any allied unit that tries to get too close. Heavy Laser Grenadiers can turn enemy armour into slag, though, I admit, they are not great at killing infantry but that is why they are paired with the shootier soldier 2 unit behind them.

The Heinrich is great against infantry and light tanks and the Ludwig is great… period.

Then you have the defenses platoon upgrade that allows one unit to be "dug in". Guess who gets that? That's right, the sniper team. Since they shouldn't be moving anyway, this allows you to deploy them in the best possible vantage point ( even out in the open) without having to try to deploy them where the terrain is. This way you don't have to put them in a place of soft cover to give them hard cover, you can place them right out in the open if that gives you a better firing line for the setup of the battlefield, whatever the setup may be. Since you shouldn't be moving with them, they will keep their hard cover.

The kommandotrupp then attempts to spread themselves out 12" apart. With the unit leader in the middle of the formation, the mechanic can stay near the back to repair any damage to the Ludwig, which you should keep in the back, and the medic can heal soldiers from your units up front. Keep in mind that you shouldn't have your soldier units pushing up too far anyway as the allies will likely have units like the Hammers, BBQ squad, or phaser-wielding units that absolutely have to come to you. So keeping the kommandotrupp in the middle with the mechanic in the back and medic in the front allows you to "cover your bases".

While it would be nice to have 2 light walkers, one for each flank, the Heinrich goes where it is needed most based on how your opponent deploys. And the Allies will rarely have more walkers than you anyway.

As I said before though, I never play lower than 300 points, so feel free to tear my suggestions to ribbons

Have fun out there!

The only real advantage I see is that airdrop can dictate setup for the Axis but even that is not a big advantage it just requires a more defensive posture during setup and being mindful of it during your movements. It also depends on missions etc. I know some people do not play missions and just play straight annihilation all the time so that could also account for some perceptions of imbalance but we have found that even straight kill or be killed is fairly balanced in Dust Warfare. The game appears somewhat unbalanced on paper but is balanced on the table top.

We just try out the game and even if we made a lot of mistakes (will post a small report of the battle) I have to say that in the one and only game that we play the Axis were performing better than the Allies even if at the end were they the one who won (small miscalculation with the movement of the Hans into the firing line of the Blackhawk which used its All in one special ability, bad business )

I used the heavy laser grenadiers agains infantry and it was a total waste, but my deployment was awful anyway. Any way, Rhino and a squad of Hammers came too close and that was a slaughter. I totally subscribe the advantage of range for the Axis. My learning from today ? keep those Allies as far as possible from my troops

Vepr said:

Some of this comes from the fact that most of us are playing primarily with armies that started out of the core boxes. As you start to see collections grow and new people start buying armies solely from booster boxes, some of this "allies are fast. They use airdrop. They come at you. Axis are slower, they wait for you and try to shoot you first" stuff will go out the window. Build a platoon full of zombies. Then build a Blutkreuz platoon with Sturmpioniere squad leading some shooty soldiers and gorillas. Charge the zombies as fast as you can at the allies with sturmpioniere turning any of the fallen soldier dudes into more zombies When the zombies get halfway across the table close to the pants-crapping allied soldiers, bring gorillas in from reserve with lightning war allowing them to get with 7" of the enemy on the turn they come in. The next turn after that will be very bad for the allies. In such a scenario, will the allies be anxious to meet the axis halfway with airdrops and speeding across the table? What happens when they now have gorillas in their flank that they didn't expect? Dynamics will change when we start seeing different lists from the standard "models from the core set plus a few of these other guys" lists. At least, that is how I see it.

Zombiejoe said:

"This upgrade may only be chosen by one platoon in a force."

So, there's a maximum of 5 Axis walkers to 4 Allied walkers in a 2-platoon game.

The other point remains valid. On average, Axis walkers are 5 points cheaper than comparable Allied walkers.

My game play experience has lead me to believe the Axis are not as powerful as the allies. It's not a huge imbalance , but if the Allies are running at 100% power the Germans feel like they are at 85% to 90%. Early game the Germans tend to be better at trading long range shots, but while better they do not dominate the first couple turns. Around turn three, the Allies tend to really start hitting back, often times rolling 10+ dice per attack, whether it's BBQ or Hellboys, Gunners or Battle Ranger with UGLs, or a Mickey/Hotdog. The Allies should be powerful with there short range firepower, but out side of character enhanced units Axis can't match the firepower and tend to get rolled. Axis fires and gets a causality or two in, then the Allies kill units whole sale in response . Add in the ease Allies ignore cover and the Axis's almost lack of cover ignoring tech and it just feels like the Axis need to play on empty tables or lose.

Zombies and Kampfaffen (love the term ) don't need to be used excusivly for all out charges, they are also nice counter-attack units.

I find that to sit back with Axis is a little too conservative. In some cases it is better to make an initial push forward to bring your firepower to bear on the shorter range Allies, then start to move back. Blitzkrieg helps with this as that really shooty hero attached unit can move back for free and then bust a sustained attack for some real damage (or since you mentioned Lara, combine the free move of blitzkrieg with Lara's assault rule to get into firing range that your opponent may not have expected you to be able to get into and can't react after your movement). Then as they are moving back, the zombies and monkeys make their push forward to engage the allies. Since there is no locked in combat and you can shoot through friendly models, as the apes and dead things fight the allies in cc, you are still shooting them with your shooty units. And Axis must take advantage of their walker superiority. They are better and cheaper and can usually field more of them. Reserve a Hans and harass the allies in the rear of their lines or flanks to divert attention from your units. Try to draw them to one side where you can deal with those rocket pack units piece meal. Maybe even look into a Markus/gorilla unit as they will be across the table and into cc faster than anything else in the game… and they are not easy to kill and cannot be suppressed on the way there. Plus they can receive orders anywhere saving your radioman to communicate with a different out of range unit. Axis have a ton going for them. Their strengths just are not as obvious as the strengths of the allies.