I was wondering what people are thinking of the current state of game balance between Allies and the Axis? I started playing as the Allies and they seemed fine. However recently I've been trying out the Axis, and they seem more powerful on paper but much weaker on the table top. Several of the Axis special rules seem more like special effects then useful rules. Laser and Damage Resilient are the biggest offender here, but Panzerfausts seem so inferior to UGLs and Leap is just amazing. I just feel the Axis can't stand up to the Evil Allies.

Balance seems to be better on the table top than it does on paper so far between the Axis and Allies but as we play more games the Allies do seem to have a bit of advantage but it is not overwhelming. Right now Axis is forced to bunker up a bit because the air drop rules for Allies. Hopefully the SSU loosen this up a bit. You are never going to have perfect 50/50 balance though, some armies are going to be a bit better you just have to hope the developers keep things as close as possible.

I find the balance to be quite good. Damage resilient is fantastic so I'm not sure what you are getting at there. Soldier 3 armour + Hard cover (either by hard cover or by soft cover with suppression) + damage resilient = one **** hard nut to crack! They are a lot more survivable than allied soldier 3, but soldier 3 allies have the speed advantage (most of the time)… Axis will usually have more tanks/walkers as well, at least that is what I find. It makes the armies play differently, but pretty equally and gives each a certain style all their own. Yes, Axis has "blitzkrieg" but allies have jump troops and squads like the BBQ squad that absolutely have to get up close, so the Axis do tend to sit back a little more in certain areas. Unless you build an action Jackson platoon, only soo much can have airdrop, most of the allies still have to hoof it. UGLs are fantastic but have to be reloaded… etc, etc….

The game just works and every game I have played has gone right down to the wire… every time (at least so far in my experience and I played a 300 point game last night using my allies and 300 point game again this afternoon using my axis and both games were ridiculously close and super entertaining).

When SSU comes out, they will have a style all their own if for no other reason than being aircraft heavy, which the other factions do not currently have access to… of course, the Ruskies do not have access to heavy walkers either… I'm sure games played against SSU will be just as balanced and tense. As others have said, any perceived imbalances on paper tend to balance out on the table.

And for people who say lasers suck, perhaps you are not using them right?… they work just fine for me… Not overpowered, not crap, just good at what they are meant to do.

@Strombole

I liked your analysis, could you be so nice to explain further which tactics you use with your Axis forces? Maybe this would allow me and maybe other people to see bzw. learn how to use those laser more effectively. Would you let them to stay back and maybe even moving backwards from the approaching Allies from cover to cover or would you advise to bunker them somewhere in hard cover and take substained attacks?

I was listening to the d6generation podcast yesterday (I came to this thanks to a post in this forum, no remember who posted it now, but thanks! it is a great podcast) and they were having a interesting discussion bzw. suggestion concerning the sniper team. The idea was to keep it somewhere with hard cover (either real hard cover or team+soft cover or team+dug in) and fire once in the Command phase (radioman here), get a reaction marker and firing again in the unit phase, basically removing two miniatures per game turn as they considered that a substained attack using the two actions in the unit phase would be overkilling of one miniature most of the time. Coming back to the lasers, would you prefer to fire twice per game turn or concentrate in one attack with rerolls ?

I don't have more bzw. any precise questions, it is more that I would be pleased to read some tactical advice here.

Thanks :)

Ariano said:

It really depends on the kind of list you build. If you have "normies" or if you are going zombie and/or gorilla heavy. You are not going to sit back and use dug in with Markus and gorillas (the most fearsome combo/unit in the game IMO) and you should not be charging headlong at BBQ squads, Hammers, and Phasers if you are using an army full of recon grenadiers. The "normies" should make an initial push forward while the snipers stay dug in in the rear with walkers such as the "Ludwig" and "Heinrich". After the initial push forward to get into firing range with your "cheaper/more expendable" units you then start to slowly move back while continuing to fire. Blitzkrieg helps here. While this is happening, The "Hans" comes in on a flanking/rear table edge which should hold up some of his advancing forces. If you are complementing the "normies" with zombies/ gorillas, the side that the Hans is entering is the side they should make their push on to try to overload his defenses on one side of the table while the other side digs in and takes pot shots with snipers, etc.

If you are using a more supernatural list full of totenmeister led zombies and Markus led gorillas, let them come! You will beat them to the middle of the table. As has been mentioned on other threads here, a Markus led gorilla unit will be able to assault you in close combat from 27" away with the help of Blitzkrieg (moving freely over any obstacles 6" high as they do so), cannot be suppressed, have a total of 9 wounds between them at soldier 3, and when they get there will roll 16 dice against a soldier 2 unit, 8 against soldier 3, and against any vehicle they would roll 10 dice. And they started 27" away! Your opponent will rarely expect them to be assaulting you from that far, even if they knew that they had this kind of movement. To be sure, you use something long range like the Heinrich and/or Ludwig to supress the unit/s that could potentially react to the gorillas when they get there. You could also support them with zombies that while they could not attack that turn would be right there on the heels of the gorillas and ready to attack next turn, demanding respect and attention as well.

For a unit like Heavy Laser grenadiers for example. They are tank hunters that are not particularly fast and so they require a little more thought to use than, say, allied tank busters who have 12" jump. With these guys you will be taking advantage of your damage resilience and 4 big armour saves. But they should not rely just on this. I like to pair my Heavy Laser Grenadiers with Lara. Where most will try to put Lara with a heavy recon unit so they can roll wads and wads of dice, I don't. I leave rolling a mitt full of dice for games of 40k… and who really needs to roll 20 dice to kill 5 dudes anyway? With Lara attached to the heavy Laser grenadiers, they now become usable against infantry and so are no longer purely good against tanks. But the big reason to pair her with them is to get her assault rule and 4 extra wounds. 7 wounds with an armour save of 4 is pretty hard to deal with. They can push hard up the table right off the bat to get themselves in range and the enemy can't react to them because they can only react before movement and not after. If they are in range already next turn and are free to make a sustained attack (remember that a hero led unit removes suppression tokens on blanks instead of hits and therefore are less likely than other units to be suppressed, plus at soldier 3 will give the opponent less dice to suppress you with in the first place), laser weapons are nasty with a sustained attack. With a sustained attack against a vehicle, the heavy laser grenadiers should put out at least 2 hits, resulting in 6 damage which should put a hurting on your enemies tank. On a good roll, you can "dust" pretty much any tank in the game in one volley (18 damage is possible from these three guys meaning even a heavy walker making every single save is dead meat… I have done 12 damage on more than one occassion which was my best and both times killed the tank in question without him needing to roll for saves as it didn't matter). You can also "piggyback" the laser squad behind another unit that is pushing up the table as well, using the front unit to provide cover for the laser troops (such as your more vulnerable laser grenadiers) so that they receive soft cover from the unit in front to help with the fact that they only have 2 armour saves and have more dice thrown against them. If you have a "Loth" that has to push up the table anyway, why not tuck in your heavy laser grenadiers or laser grenadiers in behind him for the hard cover?

A Sturmpioniere led platoon is helpful as well. This allows you to bring back your non-zombie casualties as zombies that are worth o AP and do not provide superiority points to your opponent making them a unit that you can freely thow at your opponent or use as meat shields. If you have the points for the platoon upgrade, then improved communications give them the radioman that they didn't come with and would allow that extra command outside of command radius. Also remember that gorillas do not need a radioman to order them no matter where they are, giving axis a pretty good advantage in the command phase when you factor in their free move order via blitzkrieg.

I could probably go on all day with different ways to use axis armies of different configuartions… I could do the same for allied armies as well. If you ask me who I would prefer playing, I would ask you, "What day is it today?" I will use either one at any time and feel confident about it. Its why I tell anyone who will listen that this is the best wargame I have ever played, and is hands down, the most balanced.

Thank you for the amazing post. I did want to mention that the gorillas can't benefit from the blitzkrieg order, since they can't be taken as part of an assault platoon. This means that because you have them as part of another platoon you can't give them that order. However, monkey's that turn into zombies sound fun.

Farvo702 said:

Can you quote the rule that states that because I was looking this up the other day and I couldn't find a ruling that said one way or the other.

Farvo702 said:

Farvo702 said:

There is no restriction that prevents a platoon from issuing an order to a squad outside its own platoon. So yes gorillas can benifit from a blitzkreige order.

Alas, there are Platoon Orders that cannot be given to squads outside of the platoon . . . that restriction is included within the actual Platoon Order box out . . . unfortunately my rulebook is not with me currently (for once) so I can't remember which Axis order is restricted that way . . .

I think I've figured out a place I can look . . . be right back

Sadly my notes indicate that Blitzkrieg is, in fact, the one order on the Axis side that cannot be given to units outside of the platoon . . .

Blitzkrieg can only be given to a unit in the same platoon. It is in the description for blitzkrieg…. but, looky, looky…. the second section of that platoon has the option for axis gorillas… check and mate, suckas! I know what I am talking about after all

P.S. I have mentioned it in other posts but I would not make a special gorilla platoon with Markus leading…. no point, you can have 3 gorilla units between first and third platoon if you want a lot of gorillas and Markus can go anywhere because he is a hero. Then you don't lose out on walker support, which is one of the Axis' strengths.

Booya Grandma! Booya!

Happily, Axis Gorillas can be taken as the 2nd Section of a Sturmgrenadiere Platoon, which happily is the platoon with access to the Blitzkrieg order. Markus added to your second section = a tough as nails 27" threat range killer apes squad from hades!

Edit to add - Rats Strombole, ninja'd me again!

I concede Sorry that's what I get for opening my mouth when I don't have the rulebook in front of me. Good call, and like I said awesome post.

What is this voodoo Craig doesn't have his rule book with him at work today and I have mine! You are correct Graig as others have stated this is one of the few Platoon specific orders for Sturmgrenadiere's

Pg116 in the Special orders box for Blitzkrieg " Once per Command phase, the Command Section of a s Sturmgrenadiere platoon may issue on "Blitzkrieg!" Order to on unit in their platoon."

Otherwise yes if the special order does not state that it is only for that platoon then the order can be issued to any other platoons of the same faction on the table.

Shadow4ce said:

Or you could add Markus to the a Gorrila squad in the 3th platoon for 21" threat range, and with the Gorrilas in the sturmgrenadiere platoon have 2 squads with a 21" range (Blitzkrieg + move action + fast + attack action = 6 + 6 + 6+ 3 =21").

Another, albeit more indirect, long range close combat threat is a unit of zombies with Grenadier X.

In a turn were you don't have initiative, in the unit phase you use march move + fast using Grenadier X's assault skill, that is 12+6 = 18" and your opponent can only react to the start of the movement. If in the next turn you get initiative you can attack a unit within 3", and if you don't get initiative you can react to any unit with 3" with a (CC) attack reaction.

The unit is stil vulnarable to enemy shooting of other units, but with Grenadier X the unit has DC 9, is Damage Resiliant and can't be suppressed, so will need a lot of firepower to take out.

To really turn up the pressure use all these 3 unit's with a fourth Gorrila/Zombie unit for a army that is in your face fast and in force.

In fact during the writing of this post i got sidetracked on wrote the list below:

Axis 300pts

Sturmgrenadiere platoon:

command: Kommandotruppe

1st: Battle grenadiers

2nd: Gorrilas

Support: Heinrich

Additional support: Sniper

BlutKreuz platoon:

command: Sturmpioniere

1st: Zombies + Grenadier X

3th: Gorrilas + Markus

4th: Zombies

Support: Ludwig

Support: Sniper

Additional support: Sniper

Platoon upgrade: Defenses (for 1 sniper unit)

299pts

It's got 4 units that can cover all lot of ground fast. With a lot of panzer gloves they are a threat to infantry and armour alike.

Backed up with backfield shooting of 3 sniper units, the Heinrich and the Luther. These can provide suppresion markers and/or reach across the board to these units out of range to the close combat elements. The Luther also provides some needed long range anti-armour.

The sturmpioniere, battle grenadiers and kommandotruppe are pretty flexible (midfield) units to fill out the force (and mandatory slots).

They can also provide Blitzkrieg and extra zombies with their platoon orders.

What do you guys think if this list, personally i'm starting to like it and think i need to buy some new units to try it out.

Smeer, I think that's a great list.

It's actually good that you have this list. I keep looking at the blutzkreuz platoon, and I don't think it's worth it. I would rather have a heavy platoon for the 12" regroup. Also with the 2 zombies the platoon power doesn't seem too effective as they cant be raised from the dead (cause they already are ). Also, remember if a unit is wiped out entirely, which will probably be the case with the snipers the weiderbelebungs serum won't work.

I think most of your units should be fit into the sturmgrenedier platoon so they can get the blitzkrieg order. Or rather than zombies replace them with monkies so they can be selected when you activate the platoon abilities so 1/3 of the time a dead ape means a fresh zombie.

Also you guys mentioned that the only ability that doesn't transfer is blitzkrieg so run a very small blutzkreuz platoon and a very large sturmgrenadier platoon to take advantage of the most awesome ability in the game .

Hi Farvo,

I haven't played that list yet so it's still theoretic, but i'll explain the choices.

The idea of this list was to be able to have a very strong and fast CC-element, that can be in your oponents face really quick and in force.

To get 4 CC-units (and crucial long range fire support) we need 3 CC-units from the Blutzkreuz Platoon and 1 CC-unit from either the Sturmgrenadier platoon or from the Schwerplatoon.

The Sturmgrenadiere platoon works better in this list as this enable you to use Blitzkrieg on the Gorillas giving it a crucial 21" threat range. If you go with the Schwer platoon you can get Take Charge which is a usefull order, but not neede for the CC-units as Gorrilas and Zombies can't be suppressed.

The Blutzkreuz platoon provides the Gorillas + Markus (21" threat range) and Zombies + Grenadier X (21" threat range).

So this gives us 3 CC-units with a 21" threat range which will be backed up with a 4th CC-unit marching 18" putting extra pressure on the opponent.

At this point i had not yet deceided on either Gorillas or Zombies yet, so first the rest of the list.

To make the list legal we need some mandatory units, enter the Kommandotruppe and Battlegreandiers for the SturmPlatoon and Sturmpioniere for the Blutskreuz Platoon. Even though these units are mandatory it's no crime to take them as they are very usefull, able to give orders, platoon special orders, use the medic and mechanic skill.

Wiederbelebungsserum failsafe can be used on all units in the force (not just the Blutzkreuz platoon) that are not Zombies, it can even be used on the apes. And yes this order is situational at best it can be a real bonus to get the extra zombies.

Blitzkrieg you'll mainly want to use for the Gorillas but can be used on other units in the platoon.

Maybe it's better to place the Ludwig in this platoon than the Heinrich. This way you're able to use Blitzkrieg to reposition the Luther and use sustained attack on an enemy walker. The Heinrich does not neccesarily need this option as it's main function is to suppress units, any damage it does is a bonus.

These 3 units can also anchor the back/midfield or go for objectives, depending on the mission objectives

Now the rest of the list.

The CC-units need long range support and the Luther provides dependable anti-armour capability and if needs be can also be used to suppress units.

The Heinrich is a cheap, long range unit perfect for supporting the manouverable units from a distance.

Now a big chunk of the 300 points are gone, but if we take a unit of zombies as the 4th CC-unit there are enough points left for 3 sniper units and Defenses for 1 of those.

The snipers can be used to damage/ suppress severall units or can be combined to target a unit that is a big threat to your CC-element.

The resulting force is not the most balanced force, but that was never the intention.

But i think for a beatstick it's very well rounded and i'd love to test it out.

So below a recap of the updated list:

Axis 300pts

Sturmgrenadiere platoon:

command: Kommandotruppe

1st: Battle grenadiers

2nd: Gorrilas

Support: Ludwig

Additional support: Sniper

BlutKreuz platoon:

command: Sturmpioniere

1st: Zombies + Grenadier X

3th: Gorrilas + Markus

4th: Zombies

Support: Heinrich

Support: Sniper

Additional support: Sniper

Platoon upgrade: Defenses (for 1 sniper unit)

299pts

I think that if updated to 350 points it's more well rounded, but i'll post that list in a new threat

Hi Smeer,

I would like to start by saying I was tired when I wrote the post and I totally come off as "jerky" when I re-read it. I didn't mean to insult, just want to have a conversation about the rules and army building, because I really enjoy this game, and the platoon structure and order thing makes me excited about building lists. Along that train of thought I would like to keep going if you'll listen.

I think you've got a good list, the snipers and long range "suppressing" units are a must in a CC list. I also agree with the ludwig and heinrich. Remember because the blitzkrieg order is platoon specific I would stick Markus with the sturmgrenadier platoon so he gets his 21" threat range. With X unfortunately you can't stick him in the sturmgrenadier platoon so he just has an unreactable threat range of 12" (unreactable just at the end unless he has charge in which case I'm I play the zombies in a game they get chewed up before getting into range so I agree with the snipers for some much needed suppression beat down, but I do want to recommend using the apes instead so the weiderserum is more effective. If you like the zombies I would use them as meat shields to cover markus otherwise.

Also the command squads I think are awesome in the game, and I take nothing away from them. Also the sturmpioneres are an amazing unit which can provide much needed support to give zombie squads the command range they need for orders.

Be aware of the unit clump and try to split the army defensively, otherwise ugls and victory machine guns will eat the CC unit alive.

Farvo702 said:

That's OK, no offence was taken, and i like a good conversation/discussion.

I chose Markus for the Blutzkeuz Platoon because he already can go 21" (12" march move + 6" Fast + 3" CC-attack due to the Charge skill). If you place him in the Sturmpioniere Platoon his squad will be able to go 27" with the help of Blitzkieg but will be unsupported by other units. By placing him in the Blutzkreutz we get 2 Ape units with 21" threath range. 1 unit can be dealt with, 2 it gets trickier but i wanted a 3th to really put the pressure on and for extra measure a 4th.

In order to legally get 4 CC-units i have to take 1 zombie unit (BK Platoon, first section). By adding Grenadier X to this squad you raise the durability with DC4 together with a massively increased damage output. It also increases the threat range with his Assault skill. It only one-use it can be powerfull and catch an opponent off guard.

If you have initiative use the unit phase to march move + fast using Grenadier X's assault skill, that is 12+6 = 18" and your opponent can only react to the start of the movement. In the opponents unit phase if the unit performs an action you react to the unit (within 3") with a (CC) attack reaction.

In a turn were you don't have initiative, in the unit phase you use march move + fast using Grenadier X's assault skill, that is 12+6 = 18" and your opponent can only react to the start of the movement. If in the next turn you get initiative you can attack a unit within 3", and if you don't get initiative you can react to any unit with 3" with a (CC) attack reaction.

To do this you have to park the zombies right in a enemy unit's face.

The unit is stil vulnerable to enemy shooting of other units, but with Grenadier X the unit has DC 9, is Damage Resiliant and can't be suppressed, so will need a lot of firepower to take out.

For the 4th CC-unit i would have prefered Gorillas but to get the rest of the support units i wanted i went with the cheaper zombies.

I could have dropped Defenses for 1 of the snipers, but with 3 sniper units i like the flexibility to position 1 team in the open to get good fire lanes and still get the benefits of hardcover, it also means they can receive orders from outside 12" range (if they keep still). With 3 sniper teams i think otherwise it would be difficult to find enough good firing positions in cover.

If you can use the support parts to suppres the right units you have the range to pick your fights.

Because of the long range of the support units it is not needed to go for a headlong charge in turn 1. Most likely you can outrange the Allies in the first turn(s) so you can use cover and possition your troops for a charge.

The Allies weapons are most effective at close® range so they will probably come advancing to you. When they get close enough (which will be sooner than the Allies player realizes) you release the charge with several of your units and smash them before they get in UGL and flamer range. The support troops can funnel the enemy where you want them, soften them up and put suppression on them.

With the 4 CC-units you now also have the abilty to split the in 2 team, so the can go after several targets, or just a pincer move with misdirection.

They may have the range to pull of a turn 1 charge, but maybe it's smarter to wait untill they can roll up a flank, or crucial units.

With a Markus lead Gorilla platoon you can get more Apes on the battlefield, but i think my list gives the force much more options than just the headlong charge.

I made a thread posting a 350pts variant of this list, basicly dropping 1 sniper unit + defenses and adding a Schwer Platoon with Lara+Heavy Laser Grenadiers. The addition of this unit adds a lot to the list i think. When positioned in midfield and in cover (Lara's Assault helps them get there), they are very durable and can threaten everything from infantry up to Heavy Walkers. Even an airdropping Fireball will have to think if it wants to come into reaction range of them.

They can also provide the Take Charge order to the few units in the army not immune to suppression, making Off Target Shelling a good condition.

They can also make a good extra suprise CC-unit against infantry 2 as they have no CC-weapons to harm them, but nobody expects to be charged by Heavy Laser Grenadiers. And with their combat knives they do as much damage to infantry as the Gorillas do. Infantry 3 should just be shot by them though

Now i just need to place an order for some Gorillas to actually test it out.

You know I've been trying the CC blutzkreuz idea a lot. I think a horde of zombies and apes coming at you is the coolest thing with some heavy tanks in the back laying down the suppression. When I do it in the game I want to pull out a Rommel hat and pose. But I've been having a problem with the zombies getting chewed up before they can get down field thanks to the dreaded UGLs. Allie units think of cover as just a cute little party hat (you think it looks awesome they just see a grown man in a part hat . In my experience by the time I get downfield with a 2 groups of zombies led by toten and X i get maybe one attack then the 2 units get chewed up.

The most effective way to play zombies is to make a big zombie ball, maneuver behind cover, block the firing lanes with some artillery and make a huge push to split the line while my heavy recons or fliegerfausts clean up the mess. With the list you've got it right. A lot of CC is required to get a strike in and its usually just an alpha strike so after splitting the forces you've got to look for other options to clean up. That's why the 3 sections of snipers getting 2 models everytime is important. It might be counter-intuitive but getting the sniper teams in 16 inch range while the focus is on the zombies is important.

The other thing is its a 5 turn game so the other tactic would be to annihilate on turn 4 and hope to god you have the objectives you need .

My last game went something like this. I had a zombie platoon with X and toten and 2 more groups of zombies. I placed the terrain so that there is a large structure blocking the middle of the field. I got the force collision deployment, off target shelling, and the eliminate the enemy objective so I was taking advantage by using my snipers and artillery to keep them suppressed. I eventually moved up the field and our forces met. I ducked behind cover with all 4 squads and them charged headlong in. I took out maybe 2 groups of battle grenadiers(my rolls were horrible), then my opponent proceeded by killing the toten and X units in the next go, and severely crippling the rest of my zombie units. I still barely won by 1 point but it was horrendously close, even with the off target shelling and the terrain setup. Just be aware of the high losses to the CC units. And like I said cover against allies doesn't seem to matter in my games. All units seem to have something that completely ignores it.

Also, I wish in one game I could reach the enemy tanks. I end up having to rush, even with the close engagement scenario, and then because the tanks are always in the back having to settle on killing infantry. So with all my rambling just be aware the anti-armor capability of the list is a little low. I've tried using artillery but I end up not being able to put enough suppression down in the command phase to cover the zombies.

If you'll allow me I'll try out your list the next time I play and see how it works. I already have all the required units, and it should be a fun game.

@Strombole

thanks a lot for the post concerning the lasers. Very nice ideas, have to try then in a game :)

I almost feel pity for the poor Allies, only almost…

Farvo702 said:

Please do try it out, I 'd love to get the real-world feedback, as i haven't played it yet.

And if i wanted to keep the list a secret it would have been foolish of me to post it here

I know the list has its weaknesses, as realisticly the Luther is the only long range anti-armour you have.

I think to get te best out of it you really have to use the 21" threat range of your 3 CC-units to make sure that the Allies can't use their UGL effectivly.