is Fury of the Kraken (AE) applied before Arya Stark (CoS) has the chance to go into shadows?

The framework of the challenge phase goes like this:

1) Determine winner of challenge

2) challenge result is implemented

etc.

I'm getting some answers on other sites saying that Arya Stark goes first in shadows and that fury comes after; but wouldn't the fury's text be enabled as soon as you determine the winner of the challenge and thus before the challenge result is implemented (opponent chooses character to sacrifice for claim)?

Do you mean killing Arya to satisfy claim?

Because Fury says: "choose and discard from play a character" while Arya says: "Arya Stark is killed, put her into Shadows instead of your dead pile".

If so, then, you can choose Arya to die for claim (and thus return her to Shadows) before Fury's effect is applied.

Instead, if you mean the plot ability and you just get confused between kill/discard effect, let's suppose that Fury says: "After you win a M challenge against an opponent with a HS or a HT House card, choose and kill a character controlled by that opponent."

If so, even if Fury targets Arya, Arya returns to Shadows, becausa her ability says exactly so. She return to shadows instead of going to dead pile, whenever she is killed by any effect.

To complete the answer, these are the phases of challenge resolution:

- Determine the winner

- Satisfy claim (in this case, choose which character dies for claim. Character is now moribund but does not leave play)

- Award unopposed

- Award renown

- Resolve passive abilities (here the Fury ability takes effect. Fury cannot target an already moribund character, though)

- Resolve appropriate responses (for example, Response: after you win a military challenge….)

- Moribund characters leave play

Claim always comes first.

The (common) mistake you are making is that all framework events need to happen in their entirety before passives or Responses can be used for any of them,

So while you are correct that "determine winner" happens before "challenge result," you are not allowed to use passives or Responses to "determine winner" until "implement challenge result," "award unopposed," and "award renown" happen. As such, the effect of Fury does not initiate until after claim effects are resolved.

On the other hand, Arya's "return to Shadows instead" effect is not a passive effect. It is a replacement effect that takes place at the moment she is removed from play.

oh now it is all explained, thanks. I thought every event had it's own framework action window opened

Reager said: