Hey guys,

I just was thinking of running a campaign where the Players discover one of the Lost Chapters before the Horus Heresy. Obviously, it is unclear as to what happened to the lost Primarchs and that their Chapters either were absorbed into the Ultra Marines or were lost. My idea is to have the players thrown into the Warp where they end up in an unknown sector of the galaxy. There they would find a old Astartes Chapter still wearing MK II Armour. I am still writing as I go, but I figure that this old chapter will not know about the Horus Heresy and that only 4000 years have gone by during their time. Any suggestions?

I'm sorry but if the Rainbow Warriors come back I'm gonna haveta kill somebody.

All kidding aside I *think* the older books mention the names of those legions(remember they weren't chapters till after the heresy) but you've got to go back to original Rogue Trader times to know about them.

If I remember right weren't both of those legions in jokes anyway?

iron hearts, from oldest of fluff. retconed ages ago.

Must appreciated. I already have a Primarch model to use, but I was thinking about how I would justify why one of the Primarchs had been taken out of the Imperial records. Given that the Emperor wished to not wished to be worshipped as a god, perhaps the Primarch wished for him to claim he was a god in order to establish his ultimate truth across the Imperium. Feeling that one of his sons did not understand the purpose of the crusade or was counter productive, he removed him (and he fell into the warp or whatever). Another idea is one Primarch did not wish to impose the ultimate truth on humanity and rather let them seek it out for themselves if they wish (sort of more liberal on the approach though he would hate Xenos still). I mean this would be before the notion of Chaos was revealed.

The game I'm running deals with the notion of the Lost Primarchs, but the biggest hurdle I had to overcome was the notion of 'Deleted from Imperial Records', when even Horus is still recorded. The ONLY concept I could think of, the only crime great enough to warrant such treatment, even above and beyond the absolute betrayal of humanity was this:

They were failures. The Emperor made mistakes in creating them.

So I'm running with the notion that all Primarchs were created for a purpose. Lion El'Jonson was a tactical leader bar none. Horus was the perfect Diplomat. Sanguinius brought hope. Dorn could hold any defense. In the II and XI Primarchs, their purposes failed.

The II primarch was created without a soul. He wasn't an untouchable, wasn't a pariah. He was a shell. Should one of the other primarchs be destroyed, the Emperor could capture the psychic deathcry (according to Horus Heresy canon, the death of Ferrus Manus [spoiler warning?] let out a massive psychic shockwave) and place it within the status bound toddler and regrow the Primarch. The II Legion were also locked in Status, to replace whatever Legion may have been lost. Malcador destroyed the records of this Primarch, to ensure that no one ever learnt that the Emperor thought his greatest creations might fail. During the Heresy, for some reason the location of the Stasis bound Primarch was lost (which happens to be the main plot for my game, so I think I'll end there incase any players stumble across this post!)

The XI Primarch, and legion, were modified to include the Navigator gene. Imagine the mental fortitude and biological perfection of the astartes, coupled with the ability to perceive the warp. No human-analogue Navigator would have been able to come close to their accuracy and perception. Unfortunantly, the Navigator gene is highly unstable, and its inclusion within the genetic template of the Primarch and Leion caused them to… go bad. The genetic abnormalities made the Flesh Change of the Thousand Sons negligable by comparison. The Thousand Sons were able to come back from this malady, but the XI were too far gone - the Wolves of Fenris were sent to destroy them all. (This plot line was inspired by tales of the Astartes Novus who were an experimental breed of astartes that went 'bad' who had a spherical organ in their brains that was somehow related to the warp. Easy jump of logic time go!)

1d4chan did a really excellent job with the Sky Serpents and the Desert Fangs Legions.

I really like that approach where they were considered The Emperor's Failures.

The approach I would take (sorry for taking some of your ideas) would include XI possessing the navigator gene. Because of the abnormalities in XI's gene pool, the Emperor felt that their adaptation was unsuccessful and had Lehman Russ destroy the chapter. However, given their attunement with the warp, the Primarch was able to open a portal at the last second and throw himself along with a handful of Astartes into it (similar to Old World Warhammer Dark Elf). Lehman assumed he was dead as no one could survive in the Warp.

This is what I have so far and it is a bit of a stretch. Essentially, I want the Kill Team to end up going through the warp (while being pursued by a Chaos horde) only to find themselves in an unknown sector of the universe (and end up crashing their vessel). There they would find a planet inhabited by humans which do observe the Emperor as their leader, but not god. The people of the planet have not seen an Astartes for 2000 years when an Angel arrived on their world to spread word of the Emperor. Rumors spread rapidly about the Chaos forces and how the people of this world never had firsthand experiences with the forces of chaos (as they were thought of as false myths during the pre-Horus Heresy) and were not exposed to the treachery that had befallen the Emperor (they had no idea since it was this Primarch that was the only messenger on behalf of the Imperium).

In the midst of the fighting happening on the other side of the world with the Chaos Astartes, the kill team overhears a legend where large warriors in hulking armor had appeared a thousand years after the Primarch to defend the people against a Xenos invasion. This end up leading them to a Astartes fortress in the Grey Mountains where the kill team meets with the lost chapter (wearing MK II armor). In the meantime, the people realize that ruinous powers are very real and that their only option is to revive the Lost God whom was worshipped and revered prior to the Primarch's arrival (since they believe he wont come back). This Lost God is known as Malal (Malice). They hope to utilize these powers in hopes of summoning a great demon to battle against the chaos horde laying waste to their cities. The kill team is confronted with the option of either having the lost chapter fight with them against the chaos foe (though they would lose since I included quite a lot of guys) and wait for the Primarch's return or summon the great demon.

Part of the twist, which I think is pretty sick, is the fact that Malal's sacred number is 11 along with the Primarch being number 11.

This is all I have so far that I would believe would work. I have yet to answer what happened to the Primarch.

I actually kind of got the impression that the Emperor knew about Chaos looooong before anybody else in the Imperium. Erebus claims he made and then trickily broke a deal with the Chaos Gods (which could be complete bull, given that he was trying to turn Horus against Emperor) when making the Primarchs, but then again, it is often said that the Chaos Gods were the ones who scattered the Primarchs. Maybe the Emperor knew that there were indeed gods and Daemons, and didn't want anyone else to know in order to keep humans from falling to Chaos, and so established the secular Imperial Truth? I mean, he forbade Magnus from doing sorcery because he knew at the very least some measure of the actual dangers posed, but might he have known more than anyone else on the matter?

Perhaps those two Primarchs figured out something they weren't supposed to, and when reporting stuff to the Emperor about what they had found, he either had them taken out and their Legionnaires absorbed into the Ultramarines, or both Legions turned to Chaos or were on the road to falling, but they were far out in the Galaxy where news could be suppressed and the Space Wolves were sent in? So then, the Horus Heresy is actually Chaos' SECOND try at turning Primarchs, and this time it was too big to keep secret.

Just another, simpler idea to run with, but the Emperor's Failure thing is pretty neat.

I've always suspected that at least one of the lost Legions got put on ice in preparation for the End Times or what have you. Sort of a "wake us when you need us" thing. Presumably, the other has been compromised in some way. (I'm a little cynical, I guess. My theory is that at some point they'll spring 2 new armies into the game, relating to those legions, if sales get to a certain point.)

I always felt the corruption path was just too much of a low hanging fruit to really go with. Other chapters went traitor, and while their data was sort of expunged, it wasn't on the same order as the two missing chapters.

I personally was always drawn to a notion that it was something rather tragic, as in they were fulfilling their duty to the Imperium perfectly, and in so doing, it was necessitated that their existence be eliminated and forgotten. A played up version of how the heroic deeds of the Grey Knights will never be known outside the halls of Titan.

Looking at further sources (its been a while since I've read what the current rumors on the lost legions are), it would appear that they were lost as early as partly through the Great Crusade. Possibly they came into contact with a currently unknown alien race, fought them off, but in so doing, became corrupted themselves and had to be eliminated. Perhaps they did so willingly (e.g. by allowing themselves to be corrupted, and allowing their own destruction, they gave a chance for victory). In the Imperium's shame, and to prevent rumors of corruption among the marines, perhaps the information was destroyed.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I just don't buy the notion that they fell to chaos, were involved in a political rebellion, or were failures compared to the other legions, etc. That just strikes me once again as a low hanging fruit, too played up already in the setting. For something to be as secretive as what we see with the lost legions, it has to be something spectacular , worthy of song and legend, but at the same time, so shameful, so secretive, that it can never be known.

Don't remenber in witch book of the horus heresy i read but one of the lost primarch had to be killed by his brother because he was a monster, a warp accident during the lost of the Primarch breached his "craddle" and his gene was corrupted behonh belief and repair.

What about the other one?

With my bad memory i will say that he has not survived. But once more don't know where i read it… maybe the same and it is maybe the book in witch Nikea take place, one about the space wolfs.

I'm leaning towards one of the Legions being put on ice for a time they're needed and all records expunged to insure they're forgotten until they reemerge.

From what FFG have released on the Omega Vault it is possible the center chamber is full of stasis tubes and I remember something about the Emperor being especially talented at predicting future events so it could of been possible he foresaw the need of a Legion at a specific time. But then again he didn't see Horus betraying him so who knows.

I've been constructing a story for a campaign which is tied into one of the Lost Legions.
As above I was thinking along the lines of each of the legions / Primarchs had a specific purpose in service to the Emperor. I figured that he would probably have entrusted the care of gene-seed to one of his sons, more than likely the second one since he had Horus as his warmaster to take his message forth, the second son would be a child of purity control, basically a legion of Geneticists and caretakers of the gene-seed before their fall caused it to be handed over to the techpriests of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

From there I figured I needed to determine a flaw, one that would eventually cause the Emperor to completely erase records of them and would also fit in the general theme of the other legions. I ended up looking at the Iron hands, but instead of the bionics they had the idea that they could bridge the gap between Primarch and Space Marine.

They start off with some success, and the Primarch gets hooked. The Legion starts collecting DNA samples from various creatures and xenos looking for possible paths to improve marines. They then start altering the gene-seed of their own legion, they found a way to stimulate a second transformation by injecting a cocktail of genetic specimens into the progenoid glands and into the various other enhanced organs, one enhancement granted the marine chameleon-like abilities to shift the colour of their skin and so on. The Primarch was the worst, he had more genetic alterations performed then any other of the legion
This would have continued except for an “accident”, a full round of Aspirants failed spectacularly. The Ossmodula and Bisopea implants reacted in an unexpected way, skeletal growths pieced the skin and their muscle mass required such a high metabolic turnover that it was infeasible to put them in the field. Unfortunately for the legion one of the aspirants was an unidentified latent psyker and his anguish caught the attention of the Emperor.
When he arrived and found what his son had been doing to his creation he named is a corruption of his his work, children meddling in things beyond their knowledge.

<Still working on how this part goes but its not overly important for the game, but basically the confrontation ends with the Primarch severely wounded but one of the genetic “improvements” he’s gained keeping him alive however it starts growing out of control. Somehow, probably via teleportarium or something, his legion is able to spirit away the unconscious body and head to the eastern fringes and beyond to escape his fury.>
As you can probably guess this now plays out as the Tyranid invasion, the Hivemind is the Primarch trying to come back to the Emperor. Eventually the Kill-Team will locate a genus of Tyranid that is much like the pilot in Farscape, these will be the closest things to the existing biology of the Astartes with identifiable version of the improved organs.

Thoughts?

JacobTheAussie said:

I was interesting till you brought in the tyranid invasion with the primarch as the hivemind. once you get to that point even my massive imagination said NO.

I sat down and formulated a new Chapter, as one of the Lost Primarchs' descendants. They are weird BS, the Void Shadows. I haven't finished their stuff in any DW rules, but the brokenness starts with them being Nulls. Yes, I know that is broken, but I didn't care at the time. It severely hinders the Space Marine process, but it is rather stable, if the initial changes don't kill the recipient. As a side effect of their change, all Void Shadows are albinos, leaving them with whitish hair, pale skin, and pinkish-red eyes. They are a bit wan and frail-looking, by Space Marine standards, but still robust enough to stand among their brothers. They wear black and red armor, and specialize in stealth and recon. Initially, the Void Shadows were created to travel out beyond the edges of the Imperium, seeing what lay beyond, and using their null powers to remain unseen by the Ruinous Powers, resilient to the taint that later took so many of the other Space Marines to evil. They were deleted from records to maintain their secrecy. At some point, for unknown reasons, they all but disappeared, and the last few (they were never a large Chapter) went into a stasis sleep, with their Primarch, only recently being rediscovered by, as yet unidentified means.

Certainly, I have a bit more to work on, but have a pretty good idea of how they'll work. As I'm not currently running anything DW, I don't need to finish them, but if I did run it, I might have the team discover the stasis tomb they have been sealed in for all these millennia.

That's a really cool Idea!

My own thoughts on the lost Primarch's was that they were found so late during the Great crusade that they had no impact upon it. As in they were still forming/consolidating their power when the Heresy broke out and as such played no part in it.

Thus when the Heresy was over they started to help the Imperium but showed up as 2nd founding chapters closely associated to similar chapters.

The game I'm running has on such chapter/legion running around. But as another spanner in the works the 'Primarch' wasn't a Primarch but a Matriarch. thus her name wouldn't show up on the list of Primarchs, but on a separate list that may have been lost during the Siege of Terra.

I have been toying with the idea that the two lost primarchs and there legions where not so much lost as sent so far from terra in the search for the remenants of humanity that no communication would be possible and the emperor may have lied about there fates purely for there own safety and to provide humanity with a ultimate last hope for itself. Two primarchs and there legions along with massive support sent out side of our galaxy to search out those members of humanity who during the peak of human expansion braved the seemingly infinite void to other galaxies. The emperor hid there existance to protect the secret that humanity had once traveled beyond our own galaxy even he was unsure what humanity may have become out there, as well as to provide a final hope that even if the worst should happen here perhaps humanity might live on.

I was considering this would go along side the emperors death and in his final moment the astranomican flares guiding the lost legions home, coinciding with there return I even toyed with the idea of the recreation of the fallen traitor legions as chapters under there old colors, taught there history and sworn to 10,000 year long crusades against there fallen brothers.

Just kicking around an idea, since I'm stuck at work on the 4th here. If anyone likes any of this feel free to lift it for your own use. Comments are also welcome. I'd almost started my own thread, then remembered this one and thought it would fit better here.

What if one of the lost legions, say XI for the arbitrary reason that the letter X stands for eXtreme, were actually the core of the Legion of the Damned. In this incarnation, they'd be sort of the 40k Space Marine equivalent of the Night's Watch from Game of Thrones. Perhaps their original mandate was to operate outside of the Imperium's bounds as an interdiction force.

I haven't seen the new stuff on the Legion of the Damned in "Honor the Chapter" yet, so I don't know if there's anything in there fluff-wise that would cause a problem. I'll edit and clean this up as new things occur to me, but for now it'll be a bit rough.

*Legion XI - Interdictors

*Primarch - Horatius (Status - TBD)

*Role - Guarding the borders of the Imperium, "holding the line" against unknown threats

*Tech - Mix of Heresy-era equipment, sprinkled with lesser new equipment from "adopting" reinforcements; possible archaeo-tech to explain LotD resilience, etc.

*Redacted from Imperial Records - Due to the the Heresy, this Legion was stricken from records to protect it from being attacked from the rear by supposed 'allies'. (Decision possibly reached with Horatius' knowledge, possibly worked out with the Emperor. The Legion knows it can never come home, but that their service is vital.)

*Recruitment - As a fleet-based legion, the Interdictors pull recruits from any suitable world. Additionally, any Marine forces they discover that would otherwise be lost to the void (such as the Fire Hawks) are drawn into the fold if willing, or possibly mind-wiped/sworn to utmost secrecy.

*Livery/Heraldry - TBD/Legion of the Damned colors

*Strength/Deployment - Scattered thinly along the borders of the Imperium, due to the vast space covered, precise operational numbers are unknown. Depending on threat levels detected, may operate in units ranging from a couple of squads to company-strength, though this leaves large stretches undefended, or only lightly covered.

I'm sure there are other things I'll think of. I'll add them as they come up.

**EDIT #1: The "warp contagion" story with the Fire Hawks could be a cover story to ward off too much in the way of investigation. No one wants space cooties.

It may just be that these chapters where never found. The emperor may have written off finding them as Horus started attacking. They may be like the grey knights a hidden force that only have contact with certain sections of the imperial and the records destroyed in order to keep them hidden

Narvask said:

They were found, because they had statues in the Primarch's apartments, on Earth. There's a novel where Dorn is chatting with Malcador the Sigilite, and they mention it, upon Dorn musing that it would have been helpful to have 2 more Legions to fight Horus. The renegade Legion Primarchs are still statued there, even today, I believe tarped over, but the Lost Two have had their statues broken. They might exist in secret, today, like the Grey Knights, either hunting down enemies, or following the edge of the Imperium, routing for threats (if the Nids didn't thus find and eat them), but they were found, and the Emperor did SOMETHING with them, and their Primarchs. We don't get to know what, because it gives us freedom to add to the story, or some such.

An interesting possibility is raised by a listener of "The Butcher's Nails" about the two lost Primarchs:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=255741

I resurrect this thread!

I always thought the lost Primarchs were just lost to the warp. They were scattered by the Chaos Gods - they were lucky to survive at all, no matter how superhuman Avatar punching they are.

On the other hand the failure idea is good too. Maybe a combination of the two - they didn't survive the passage because they were in some sense failures, unable to withstand the terrible energies of the warp.

I kinda like the idea that I read and heard about, that the warhammer fantasy world is actually a planet in the 40k universe. The elves (eldar) were put there to defend against some important threat long ago or something and humans suddenly appeared. There is a warp gate on the planet which chaos appears from and the world is surrounded by storms which would keep it from the eyes of the emperor.

Also, on this world they had a human champion called Sigmar, who ended up dying and becoming a "god". This god-like figure seems like it could fit very well with the description of a primarch. I haven't read it all in detail yet but I kinda like the idea, though as he died he would now be lost.

As for the other one I prefer a genetic failure probably, though there are other options as well.

As for the approach about one of these two primarchs wanting the emperor to step forward as god, we already have one of those. The Word Bearers had that role and fell, so another legion with the same idea doesn't appeal to me at least

Same for the navigators really, the thousand sons are the warp experts of the legions and they also fell. Had there been another legion who used the warp and disappeared or something, the story would have been much different I think. They would have known more about the warp and it's dangers probably.