@dcdennis: yeah, it's surprising how much fun this game can be in "casual mode." I'm not saying competitive isn't fun, but it's easy to forget the best parts of this game (back and forth challenge calculating and strategy, and outplaying your opponent with plots, etc) when all you play is your most tourney ready builds. I still think my article back on cardgamedb was right about the state of the game being somewhat non-interactive, but haven't heard many views on this recently so assume I'm in the minority.

On colluding, I think there's an important component that people are overlooking. If someone helps a meta mate, it isn't a random act of kindness. That supporter has a vested interest in the succes of the friend, and the meta as a whole. A major win elevates the reputation of the meta, and gives a friend a strong sense of satisfaction. Based on my own experiences with my meta mates, who are my best (and only) friends in New York, I can say that the biggest reason I play this game is the people, and I am particularly ecstatic when my friends win. I may not go out of my way to collude, but that's a personal preference, and all else being equal I will most likely help a friend in need over a stranger.

Similarly, if you get picked on because you ran a net-deck or even just unluckily the deck that an opponent has a personal dislike for, then it may feel arbitrary, but there is logic to it. The reality is that there are strong influencers outside the mechanics of the game that affect game outcomes. This is unavoidable for any game that has multiplayer interaction. Either designers restrict a player's ability to interact with opponents (like Dominion) or they accept that some people will get picked on and others aided for reasons that some describe as unfair.

So long as there are not significant in-game reasons to collude, the very significant and highly personal outside-the-game considerations will have a very large impact on outcomes. People aren't bad, but they are human.

Twn2dn said:

most profoundest agot post evar.

dcdennis said:

i don't know if you actually know penfold and are just messing with him, in which case im way off base but if not, there is a huge difference between the regular collusion that happens within the confines of a melee game and the collusion that happened at the final table, considering the stakes and what it meant for the other 2 players at that table. it was legal yes, but it is also understandable for some players to have a reaction like he is. at the risk of offending you, it seems like your being a **** for no reason

jack merridew said:

impossible to offend me ser and you pretty much hit it right on the head i dont play melee so i have no vested interest in this debate one way or another. just goofing around. no offense intended. just trying to make adam giggle.

dcdennis said:

It worked. Tee hee hee!

I understand how Penfold feels as I feel the same. However, I'm not entirely outraged by the concept that collusion happens. The way I sort of see Melee is that it really cannot be an "every man for himself" type of game competitively. It should be approached as a 3 vs 1 type of game where you hope to form some alliances with one or two opponents.

One comparison I can think of is the unrealistic Royal Rumble that the WWE has. If it wasn't staged, would you really try to beat each wrestler by yourself? Would you try and eliminate your friends before the wrestlers you are not friends with? Imagine you and your friend are part of the final 4 wrestlers. You both will team up in such a way to help facilitate the win for one of you I imagine.

I personally have enjoyed casual Melee games the most so far in this game. Even if I lose, the game has generally been fun to play with the wheeling and dealing and with some of the differences the titles can make.

Yeah there's a reason I don't take competitive melee seriously. I refuse to build for it (I literally just use my joust deck), and will intentionally make deals just to break them as fast as possible. It frustrates people, but since FFG made the overall champ a reality, I'm kinda forced into playing it. Also, you'd be surprised at how well you do at melee when you just don't care. lol

Staton said:

And everyone will remember this when they sit down at a table with you. This is how the melee meta balances itself out: collective memory. Don't make and break deals if you aren't willing to accept the consequences down the road.

Probably hopeless attempt to get the thread back on track. Collusion discussions come up every 4months or so. They are never pretty. Below is the original post and the intent of the thread.

dcdennis said:

AGoT DC Meta said:

Yeah everyone always says that, yet people come and make deals with me time and time again.

Staton said:

~If we play, I'll give you 3 cards and a location if we help each other place 1st and 2nd.

orclrob said:

Thanks, Rob. I tried to get it back on above, but then derailed it again.

Dennis was saying that his experience in TN was different. The meta imo is a pendulum swing: at some point, it's at equilibrium and "perfectly balanced" which is probably what he felt when he entered the game. But it can still shift. It's probably impossible to achieve perfect equilibirum just because the meta never settles long enough to accurately gauge where the focus of power is among houses. That's why it was kind of cool that I thought the card pool would be fixed for regionals: we could accurately see where things fall out in terms of house strength. But that window of opportunity has closed with few conclusive results, and we're back to a state of vertigo.

@dcdennis - I'm glad that your experience in TN was a positive one. My game against you was one of the best games that I have played in a while(even with the couple of mistakes I made). I think it is what kicked me into gear for the rest of the day. There's nothing like leaving a regional or Gencon tourney and feeling completely revitalized in your love for the game. You are always welcome back any time you want to join us.

are we really about to let this thread die? it has been quite entertaining over its long life.

HoyaLawya said:

~What happens when you poke at a bloated corpse?

AGoT DC Meta said:

Recent experience is that gold drops from them. Sometimes Imps, Electric Eels or Biting Swarms. I got a nice magic item last night.

playgroundpsychotic said:

Nice.

The conversation continues about what to restrict next.

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It's funny how we say that it's the most balance ever, then continue to want changes. Want to talk about that?