After reading the rules concerning Reactions I was wondering about the following:

According to page 34, "there are two circumstances in which a unit can react: Enemy miniatures make a Move action that begins or ends within 12" of any miniature in the [reacting] unit".

However, what about the following?

1. A unit begins its movement in the open but further than 12" and ends the movement behind a wall where it is completely outside of sight of the [reacting] unit but within the 12", or

2. A unit begins its movement below 12" but behind such wall (completely outside of sight of the [reacting] unit and ends the movement somewhere else but further than 12", or

3.the unit begins and ends its movement below 12" but goes from behind such a wall to behind another such wall.

In the 1st case, the beginning of the movement cannot trigger the reaction as it happens further than 12", the same applies to the end of the movement for the second case. No concerns so far.

However, for the end of the movement in the 1st case and the beginning of the movement in the 2nd case and both (beginning and end) of movement in the 3rd case I feel it a bit difficult to accept that the [reacting] unit can indeed react.

I understand (or so I think) the rule, this is not a critic to the system (which btw I did not try yet), only my suggestive impression. Allow me to elaborate further.

1st case: the moving unit ends within the 12" but out of sight, obviously for the reacting unit is not possible to attack (line of sight is blocked), however would be able to move as reaction. This is fine for me, the reacting unit "sees" the unit in the open, "is aware" of the unit moving behind the wall and decides to move in reaction to this "input" (end of the movement).

2nd case: the [reacting] unit "is not aware" of the moving unit when it starts moving as the moving unit is behind the wall, outside of sight, "is surprised" or "sees suddenly" the unit moving into the open and "sees" where it stops moving. However the end of the movement does not triggers reaction, only the beginning (below 12") can trigger the reaction. In other words, the [reacting] unit is reacting to something it can not see.

3rd case: here, both, the beginning and the end of the movement (and in a ridiculous case, even the same movement in the wall happens to be the same wall, let say, imagine two parallel corridors in an underground complex, with one unit in each corridor, similar to the two lanes in a highway, with the wall separating and effectively blocking the units from interact with each other) are "invisible" for the [reacting] unit, which again will react to something it can not even perceive.

Obviously we can always rule things one way or another in our games, that is not the point. My point is more to know if anyone was also wondering or thinking along those lines and if any play-test pointed out those potential problems.

Also any comment or remark will be appreciated.

Your interpretation of the rules seems correct to me, I'm not sure what you're asking though with regards to there being an issue or problem ?

Just because you can't see someone, doesn't mean you can't hear them and react accordingly… /shrug

mariettabrit said:

Exactly! IRL, I rely on hearing almost as much as I do sight in a tactical environment. Especially in close quarters battle, where sometimes a sound is all the warning you have.

I see what Ariano is asking: can a unit react with a move action to an enemy that begins moving within reaction range but out of LOS and stops moving outside of reaction range but can be seen; or starts a move action within reaction range but out of LOS and ends the action within reaction range but out of LOS.

They way the rules are written, terrain can block or obscure sight, but not sound. So the reacting unit would be able to react to an enemy within reaction range, but which they can't see. They could still hear the enemy moving around, and would be able to hear in stereo so they could choose to either wait until the enemy has finished moving (reacting at the end of a move), or try to guess where they might move (reacting at the start of a move). Two opposing units could move on either side of a thick steel wall and still hear each other moving.

Also, remember that a reacting unit must either react at the start or the end of the enemy's move action, and you have to choose when to declare this (either a simple "go ahead" or a "wait, I'm reacting" at the start of the move).

Defining sound characteristics for terrain could make for an interesting house rule, but for "playing by the book" it would probably just bog things down too much.

Cannor said:

I don't have my rulebook with me but I am not sure that's the actual rule. I believe it just says you can react to an enemy unit that either starts or ends its movement within 12" of one of your units. There is no stipulation that it has to be stated before the movement if its based on its initial position, you just have to be given ample time to react before they go to their second action. That being said I believe it is perfectly legal to "hear" an enemy move and react as per normal reaction moves.

Pg. 34 top right first bullet point.

"The reacting unit must declare and execute its reaction either before the activating unit moves or after it has completely finished moving."

Snowshadow said:

proven wrong that's what I get for opening my mouth with out consulting my rule book. I need to start bringing it to work with me again as that's when I check these **** forums.

Snowshadow said:

which combined with

Ariano said:

results in the following:

the moving unit is behind a wall and within 12" of an enemy unit but totally blocked (LOS). The moving unit declares an action movement. This declaration triggers a reaction of the enemy unit as it is a movement which starts within 12", so far so good.

Now the question is:

1.- the reacting unit MUST declare the reaction now, before of the movement of the unit BECAUSE the trigger is the START of the movement, or

2.- the reacting unit CAN declare the reaction AFTER the moving unit ends it movement (as per page 34 top right first bullet point), independently where this movements ends as the trigger (start of movement within 12" ) extends on time and it is not a fixed point on time.

I would say that the trigger and the declaration of reaction are two consecutive points on time and that 1.- is the right solution.

What do you think ?

I know it is a bit rules lawyer, but anyway been really interested in hearing other ideas about this.

I like the reaction system as far as I understand it, that is the main reason I am trying to discuss it a bit more in detail. Hope it does not bother anyone…

Yeah, I say you have to react before the unit moves at all.

Remember the active player has to declare both actions. After they say, "I'm going to Move and then Attack", then that's your chance to say, "I'm reacting to the beginning of your move action" and then you react before anything else happens.

I don't see what the cover has to do with when you react… it's all based of distance… doesn't matter if you have LoS

You either declare your reaction at the start of their move and perform your reaction before they move, or you wait, hope they end their move with at least 1 model with 12" of one of yours, then declare and perform your reaction. If you do not react to the move when it begins, and conditions do it allow you to react at the end, then you do not get to react. Come on guys, this is simple. Where's the confusion?

mariettabrit said:

Yes, you are 100% right.

The point is that IF the unit starts within the 12" and moves outside of the 12", the trigger for the reaction is the BEGINNING of the movement and not the END of the movement. Therefore I think that you should declare and resolve the reaction BEFORE the unit actually moves, just after it declares that it is moving.

If that is so and the unit is outside of LOS, the reacting unit would only be able to MOVE as reaction because the moving unit (which by starting the movement within the 12" causes the reaction of the reacting unit) is outside of LOS and there the reacting unit can not react attacking the unit BEFORE it moves.

However, once the unit has moved, it can happen that this unit moves inside the LOS of the [reacting] unit but outside the 12". In this case, and according to the strict wording of the rule, the [reacting] unit could declare a reaction AFTER the movement because the trigger condition of START the movement within 12" is fulfil and declare an attack AFTER the moving unit finishes its movement.

The point is if the trigger is a point in time:

start of movement within 12" ---> trigger reaction [end of time period] ; movement ; end of movement outside of 12" - no trigger - no reaction

or if it applies to the WHOLE movement:

start of movement within 12", then trigger = TRUE ; movement ; end of movement outside 12" and as trigger = TRUE then possible reaction of enemy unit which was within 12" of the BEGINNING of the movement, which was not able to attack the moving unit because no LOS but which now has LOS to new position of the moving unit and which therefore will be able to attack at this point in time (also to move)

In other words, if a unit is within 12" and starts its movement, it is compulsory to declare the reaction before it moves as the trigger will expire once the unit moves or it is possible to wait until the unit has moved and then declare the reaction after the movement because the trigger does not expire in the hope that the moving unit would be in a better position to be fire at (or for any other reason)

Do you see my point?

I personally think that the trigger should expire, but I see a huge potential for arguments on the game table here…

Shadow4ce said:

You see?

You are also saying the same as me: the triggers expires.

Maybe the thing with the LOS was not the more fortunate example, but I hope I explain myself properly:

The moving unit starts in 12" range and finish outside of 12", are you allowed to react at the end of the movement as the condition "start movement within 12"" is fulfil or not ?

I think no. I think the condition or trigger expires right after it happens.

So, the unit starts within 12", possible reaction, then moves outside 12", no reaction

I think you see that this way also, right ?

you react before or after they move… end of story… nothing inbetween…

Here's how I see it works.

Unit A is within 12" of Unit B.

Unit A declares move - shoot

Unit B declares it's going to react at the end of movement (lets say because Unit A is currently blocked by LoS)

Unit A completes it's move and moves to be 14" away from Unit B but in clear LoS (they want to shoot Unit B)

Unit B completes is reaction at the end of Unit A's move and can decide to shoot (if it has weapons that are in range) or can itself move to get out of LoS.

Unit A completes it's shoot action if possible at Unit B.

The reaction action was triggered by Unit A starting within 12" - end of story

So reactions to move are only based on where the move begins?

So if someone moves from outside 12" to inside 12", I can't react to that movement?

Ariano is correct.

Pg 34 reads…

"A unit must declare its reaction either directly before, or directly after the enemy action is resolved (depending on the triggering action). "

It continues…

"Units reacting to a Move action are subject to the following restrictions:

• The reacting unit must declare and execute its reaction either before the activating unit moves or after it has completely finished moving.

• Attack reactions may only target the activating unit; the reacting unit cannot divide its attacks among multiple units."

Basically, as I stated earlier, when the activated unit declares a move action, the opposing player may declare they are reacting at that time, or they may declare they are reacting after the move action is complete. If they wait, they risk not being able to react, due to the 12" range restriction. If a unit is completely out of LOS at the start, and you declare a reaction, you must react at that time, before they move. A Fire reaction is wasted, and you get a Reaction token. A Move reaction can be taken. If you wait until their move is complete, then you may not react if they are more than 12" away. it's the, " The reacting unit must declare and execute its reaction either before the activating unit moves or after it has completely finished moving." portion, coupled with the "A unit must declare its reaction either directly before, or directly after the enemy action is resolved (depending on the triggering action). " portion that makes it this way.

Does this help

1- Enemy unit declares actions

2- Friendly units declare reactions

3- Enemy unit performs first action

4- Friendly units declare reactions

5- Enemy unit performs second action

6- Friendly units declare reactions

your reactions may very depending on the type of action the enemy is declaring/performing.

There's rarely a time I would think, that you would declare before the move, unless you know they're going to end up outside of your 12" react range.

blkdymnd said:

Assault & Charge come to mind, but outside of those two Special Operations, I'd concur.

felkor said:

Yes, you can. There are two movement triggers: 1st beginning of movement within 12", and 2nd end of movement within 12"

Thanks for the "(depending on the triggering action)" reference. I missed it.

I really don't know if the situation can happen so often or can be a problem in a game. It was more of a rules pondering question