FFG just posted this updating legalizing Valar Morghulis for regionals season:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/agotlcg/support/AGoT_TourneyRules_2012%20UPDATED.pdf

Short notice for DC regionals…

Between Illyrio, Incinerate and even the Bastard of Nightsong, this will shake up the meta.

Poor form, FFG…

It doesn't make sense to have a Regional season where from one weekend to the next people are using different cards…

Wow, so much for knowing what I am playing and getting any practice with it! I know it is just one chapter pack, but I have a strong feeling it will heavily influence deck choices.

Wow, that's a massive change given the Targ cards. Whereas I was expecting very little Targ in DC (and I even had decided to play something else this time around), it's going to be mighty attractive to pick up Targ with Incinerate. Maesters are also going to be much more of a liability…hmmm, this is a HUGE change.

To clarify, Dan, what's the legality of these at the DC regionals?

Twn2dn said:

I'm looking into that and will announce it on the DC Regionals thread.

AGoT DC Meta said:

Well, yes and no. Playing Devil's Advocate here….

The normal, though primarily unwritten, policy for card legality at FFG-sponsored events is 1 week after the cards become commercially available - usually defined as when they become available through the FFG online store. They never actually said this rule was suspended when they posted the "Tournament Rules for Regionals" document without mentioning "Beyond the Narrow Sea, as it becomes available." (I freely admit it was implied and that I was going by that assumption for the Chicago regional on June 30th myself, though….) They were undoubtedly fielding questions about whether that policy still held since the cards became available, or they may have been surprised that the cards were not legal at Missouri and Kubla last weekend (unless they were and I missed it).

They said last year - when they did not "lock off" the card pool for Regionals - that as a "living" card game, it didn't make a whole lot of sense in the long run to say cards weren't legal after that 1-2 week waiting period. And before people get to up-in-arms about "all Regionals should be played with the same card pool," remember that Gencon in August is part of the regionals program and the World Championships in November are technically part of this tournament season, too. Are you suggesting we NOT play with Beyond the Narrow Sea until after November?

Definitively saying "we want these cards legal for the remainder of Regionals" two weeks before the next regional is a bit of a game changer, but it isn't particularly short notice really. Two weeks is longer than the general policy, and a good chunk of people don't finalize their decks until the night before anyway (you know it's true).

And, of course, the TO does have discretion to issue different ruling before his/her event.

darkbladecb said:

Why doesn't it?

Penfold said:

After playing in a regionals and playing against regionals decks for the past 3-4 months, I'm not at all opposed to mixing up the competitive scene a bit. This chapter pack more than any other in the past year is likely to be disruptive to the environment. The main reason is that Incinerate allows a Targ player to simply kill a maester, no matter whether that maester has a ton of chains attached or not. With this chapter pack, maesters will be much riskier out of any house.

The biggest downside I see to a major metagame shift is that there may need to be some anti-Targ tech. In other words, big characters will be better…so expect even more Stark winter builds than one would normally see. It is difficult to imagine how any GJ deck will survive without a ton of cancels or extremely fast choke. Ghaston Grey probably just took a blow as well. One of the best ways to deal with Martell nobles is to just kill them before they leave play. Incinerate helps a lot with that, and doesn't require the crazy investment in influence that typically accompanies Targ burn.

One of the most interesting consequences of this ruling will be the effects it has on Targ itself. With Incinerate and Illyrio in the environment, Targ is very attractive. But it's extremely difficult for Targ to tech agains the mirror match (I think), because so many of Targ's best responses (Illyrio, Meereen Brothel, Killer of the Wounded, Fairweather Followers, etc.) can be triggered no matter who plays the initial effect. Stopping an opponent from taking advantage of your own Threat from the North is difficult, and finding ways to slow an opponent down in the mirror match is painfully challenging. In my experience, this mirror match comes down to draw…whichever Targ deck has their card advantage out earliest tends to win. But without Targ maester builds (which would be vulnerable to Incinerate), it's going to be extremely interesting to see what competitive Targ builds now decide to run.

I get the "late notice" bit, and the TO I believe always has last word on such things. I was really questioning the statement about it being bad for the card pool to change during a tournament season.

I need to figure out what deck I'm playing, and fast.

Penfold said:

ktom said:

~ktom says that FFG is the devil.

ktom said:

I think everyone's assumption (and yes, it was an assumption, although FFG certainly created the circumstances for it to happen, and certainly didn't invalidate it), was that the card pool would be locked for regionals. I don't mind that they changed it. I do mind that they basically allowed for all players to think this and then changed it all overnight seemingly on a whim. This seems to be another example of poor PR created by FFG's miserly communication (is miserly to harsh a word?)

ktom said:

"A game changer" is a bit of an understatement. Finalizing decks by changing out a few cards is one thing; having to adjust the entire meta, regauge house strengths, rethink deck weakness because of this new chapter pack in two weeks is a little much.

I agree with Twn2dn that this chapter pack is definitely going to shift the meta, especially with the big boost to Targ burn, and the first of the charagendas. Again that's not a bad thing, I just don't think two weeks isn't enough to adjust to that.

It's still your decision to make. I'll support whatever the decision. Close call IMO

Penfold said:

I am admittedly new to this scene. So I my post was a bit of a dramatic overreaction. I was more just surprised, because I hadn't known that this wasn't a deviation from the norm, as I'd thought, nor did I quite realize how long Regionals season is for. So I spoke too soon, without enough information. My bad there.

Its one thing for the card pool to change during the regional season (which it did last year and most other years before that). Its a completely different issue to change a formal rule in the midst of the tournament season.

The issue here is that FFG issued a tournament document before the regional season that specifically stated which chapter packs would be legal during the regional season. So anyone who has not yet participated in a regional yet was planning on it (DC, Iowa, Chicago, etc) is now going to feel a little duped by FFG because they have spent months potentially planning or practicing for their event under a previous set of circumstances laid forth by FFG.

I just think it was a horrible idea to issue a formal document spelling out the tournament rules for the entire regional season, only to change that document halfway through.

AGoT DC Meta said:

ktom said:

Regardless of the relative unsurety of everone, FFG didn't do anything to negate or support the speculation that was clearly happening. Is it too much for "ffgorganizedgaming" to send an email to the TOs dispelling this assumption? This decision just creates confusion and upset for what should be an enjoyable and focused event, in my particular case anyway. If it were even done last week, this wouldn't be an issue.

FFG remains a board game company with a competive games problem.

That being said I don't mind shaking up the meta.

Well, it wouldn't be tournament season without some sort of communication problem and/or misunderstanding.

ktom said:

[sigh] That's true unfortunately.

Or TO's could have been in contact with the design team or organized play person and ask about such things. I specifically recall having heard more than once from Damon in regards to CoC that the document would be updated because as TO I had a dozen questions for him about stuff. I didn't specifically ask about whether or not new packs would be made legal and that was as much my bad as it was whoever is in charge of OP.

An email in either direction could have solved this. I have a hard time placing all the blame on them when I couldn't be bothered to check on something that has been a regular occurrence for a few years now.

Penfold said:

That's true too, and although it's hard to say after the fact, if I had specifically asked if and when Valar Morghulis would be made legal for the regionals season, I doubt I would have gotten a clear and definitive answer. It probably would have been something like, "Please refer to the tournament rules." It doesn't matter to me if FFG decides to make it legal; shaking the meta up is cool. That's not the problem. For me it's all about the timing of this. VM has been out for since around May 9th, and they could have announced then that it would be legal for June 8th and it wouldn't have been a problem. But that's besides the point, because as a TO, I've solved it from my end.

I don't want to continue casting blame, because really there's very little blame to cast. I'm very familiar with miscommunication because I am a guy and I have a wife. It happens. It's funny that I have to define my relationship with FFG in the same terms.

I still love you, FFG. (Has anyone ever used this emoticon on these boards?)

In fairness, FFG doesn't speak Russian.

I thought the decision to "lock" the card pool was nuts in the first palce. Even in CCG we occasionally had production delays that held up the thrid set of a blcok - and sometimes they were legal for some Regionals and not others depending on when the event was held.

NY was actually looking to hold a later regioanl than we did - becuase we wnated a feild with competitive decks, clsoe to what would eb expected at genCon. We bid early when FFG seemed to lock the pool. *Shrug* it makes sense that VM is legal - players will need to ramp up their prep.