I wouldn't even go as far to say lower quality components. Yes, the plastic is a bit softer than wargame norm, but painted up the sculpts can stand up nearly to anything out there. And when you say unpainted models, I don't know if you've seen many 40k and Warmachine tourneys and the amount of flat grey and pewter armies that populate those. At least we have appropriate base colors

Yes I've seen them and didn't like the fact for me it's unacceptable and an insult for someone who appreciate the setting of a game.It's like using a can of Coke as a terrain.

Dust is primed so you don't neccessarily need to paint them, so if somebody haven't got money and skills to paint, they are perfectly fine to play just as they come out of the box. Why I would accept unpainted Dust over any other game? Because they look unified, and decals adds the detail.

I think anything can be made extraordinary with the right set of skills and commitment to do so, that's what drive some hobbiests, they are more a modellers than gamers. I am a gamer, so starting with wargames for me was difficult and expensive, buying the right tools and paints, making terrain etc. adds a lot to the final cost. So the little difference in price of the miniatures is pointless to take into consideration when picking a new game. Also money is just one thing, you also spend your time putting the game together and brain power to learn new ruleset. That's why I would suggest to try ANY game before purchase to see for yourself if you'll enjoy it, Dust is an easy game to start in this regard.

As my example shows it is how some people look at miniatures, they see soft plastic = lower quality, where I see a beautifully produced game that's fun to play they see 10mm soft plastic crap and won't even touch it.

I would love to see more plastic terrain availible for the game, maybe walls that you could use with tactics and warfare that would obscure LOS to any piece on the board (except fliers), and something half the hight that would grant walkers hard cover (like at-43 containers). That would make the game even more friendly for newcomers.

Galadhir said:

Okay if that was what you meant then I understand your statement better, to me it sounded like you were saying they designed a dumbed down game special needs kids play (paraphrasing of course, but thats how you sounded in my head).

I still disagree though since this game rewards deep tactical thinking, sure its easy to get started with, but not really meant for Amatures. Just because its easy to get started does not mean its designed for Amatures is all I am saying…. does this make sense… I may be repeating myself and incoherent I haven't slept and am loaded on coffee atm

interesting little article on BoLS that went over the price comparisons for different games and "standard level competitive armies" here is the link to the site: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/price-of-wargaming-spring-2012.html

Overall though this was the break down they had which will hopefully shed a little bit more clarity on things:

Warhammer 40,000

First up is a pair of sample 1500 armies, one smaller and elite, the other more on the horde side of things. Lets see what Games Workshop is running these days:

Grey Knight Army - 1500 pts

HQ: Grand Master, Master Crafted Psycannon, Master Crafter Nemesis Force Sword, Blind Grenades, Psykotroke Grenades
Elites: Purifiers X 10, Halberds X 5, Daemon Hammer X 2, Psycannon X 2, Incinerator X 1, Rhino Troops: Grey Knight Strike Squad X 10, Psycannon X 2, Psybolt Ammunition, Rhino
Troops: Grey Knight Terminators X 5, Psycannon, Halberds X 4, Daemon Hammer X 1
FA: Storm Raven Gunship, TWL Lascannons, TWL Multi-Melta, Extra Armor
Heavy: Dreadknight, Personal Teleporter

Cost to build
Grey Knight Strike Squad Box X 4 = $132.00
Grey Knight Terminator Box X 2 = $100.00
Storm Raven = $82.50
Dreadknight = $53.75
Rhinos Kits X 2 = $74.50

Total cost = $442.75

The extra Terminator kit is so you can make your Grand Master and have enough guns. They do not make a Grand Master with a Pyscannon at this time. Plus it also gives you more options for your regular guys with Halberds and other choices.

Ork Horde - 1500pts

HQ: Warboss, Power Klaw, Attack Squig, Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Bosspole
HQ: Big Mek, Kustom Force Field
Elites: Lootas X 15
Troops: Nobz X 5, Painboy, Power Klaw X 3, Big Choppa X 1, Eavy Armor X 5, Cybork Body X 5, Waagh Banner, Bosspole, Battle Wagon, Big Shoota X 2, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggas
Troops: Boyz X 20, Big Shoota X 2, Shootas X 17, Nob, Power Klaw, Bosspole
Troops: Boyz X 12, Nob, Power Klaw, Bosspole, Trukk, Reinforced Ram
Troops: Boyz X 12, Nob, Power Klaw, Bosspole, Trukk, Reinforced Ram
FA: Warbuggies X 3, TWL Rokkits X 3
Heavy: Battle Wagon, Big Shoota X 2, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggas

Cost to Build
Warboss - Black Reach - $10.00
Big Mek - $22.25
Loota Box X 3 - $75.00
Nobz X 1 - $25.00
Boyz X 5 - $145.00
Trukk X 2 - $74.50
Warbuggies X 3 - $90.00
Battle Wagon X 2 - $132.00

Total = $573.75

WARMACHINE/HORDES

Next up is a pair of standard sized armies - one elite and one more horde-ish as well.

Khador - 35pts

Khador Battlebox
pButcher
Great Bears
Greylord Ternion
Kovnik Joe
Winterguard (full sized)
Winterguard UA
2x Rocketeers
Widowmakers

Cost to Build
$212.90

Legion - 35pts

Lylyth
Carnivean
2x Shredders
Teraph
10x Swordsmen
10x Hex Hunters
Bayal
Strider Deathstalker

Cost to Build
$188.92

Warhammer Fantasy

Same deal, two armies at the rulebooks's suggested point value, one smaller model count, and one larger.

Skaven – 2250 Pts - “Bell, Skitterleap, HPA List”

Grey Seer- Screaming Bell, Warpstone Tokens, Dragonbane Gem, Other Trickster's Shard
Chieftan BSB- Halberd, Charm Shield, Talisman of Preservation
Warlock Engineer- Level 1, Brass Orb
Warlock Engineer- Level 1, Doomrocket

Skavenslaves x100
Clanrats x40, FC, Sh Warpfire Thrower W.T.
Stormvermin x40, FC, Stormbanner Warpfire Thrower W.T.

Hell Pit Abom
Hell Pit Abom
Warp Lightning Cannon

Cost to Build:
2 Battalion Boxes: 115.00 x 2 = 230.00
2 Stormvermin Boxes: 49.50 x 2 = 99.00
1 WarpLightning/PlagueClaw: 33.00
1 Screaming Bell: 62.00
2 Warpfire WTs: 15.00 x 2 = 30.00
2 Engineers: 13.25 x 2 = 26.50
1 Chieftain BSB(Warlord): 15.25
2 Hellpit Abomination: 49.50 x2 = 99.00
Total: $594.75

Note: The 100 Slaves come from the Batallion Boxes using Plague Monks, Clanrats, Giant Rats and Rat Ogres as fillers.

Dark Elves – 2250 Pts - “Dual Hydras – Razor List”

High Sorc- Lvl 4, Sac Dagger, Talisman of Pres
Sorc- Lvl 2
Hag Queen- Cauldron, BSB

RXBs: 14, Muso
Warriors: 24, FC, Shield, Std of Discipline
Corsairs: 30, FC, AHW, Sea Serpent Standard
Black Guard: 18, FC, Banner of Hag Graef
Cold One Knights: 6, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame
Hydra x 2

Cost to Build
1 Battalion Box: 105.00
1 DEW Box: 35.00
1 Corsair Box: 24.75
1 Dreadlord on CO: 22.50 (use as COK Champ)
1 Cauldron: 40.00 (old price, not available currently)
2 DE Sorcerors: 13.25 x 2 = 27.00
2 Hydras: 69.00 x2 = 138
Total: $392.25

DUST Warfare

Last up is a standard suggested 300pt Tournament standard army for DUST Warfare. This sample Axis army has an average number of infantry and a couple walkers.

Axis Forces - "Brazillian Front" (Modelcount: 47)
Axis Zombies box x 4 $14.95
Totenmeister x 1 (Hero Pack) $19.95
Ludwig $24.95
Lothar $24.95
Heavy Recon Grenadiers box $14.95
Battle Grenadiers box x2 $19.95
Kommandotrupp box $14.95
Special Ops Grenadiers box $14.95
Total: $214.40

Basically Dust is on Par with Warmachine /Hordes for cost but WAY cheaper then any of the Warhammer stuff, at least at the competitive level.

Galadhir said:

This is the part that I find important. Unlike other TT games out there, you can be playing quickly after reading the rules. There is no week long chore of assembling minis or months of painting before you can play. I have run into 40K groups who had the attitude that "if it's not painted, you can't play".

Galadhir said:

What one calls "low quality" is a relative term. The minis are detailed appropriately for the game, look good (they aren't grotesquely disproportionate), are ready to go out of the box, and are affordable.

The elitist attitude of some gamers is terrible and speaks more about the person than the game they chose to stand behind. If you like something, play it. Don't go after someone else for liking something different.

@Denied

I thought we are talking about the price/quality in this thread not the rules… so when I was talking about the audience I was thinking about set of skills neccessary (manual) to put the figures together and paint them, in this regard it's target audience is an unexperienced in those matters gamers, maybe boardgamers as well.

But even rules reflect this aproach, you must agree with me that they are not overly complex, and easy to teach. Everybody have to answer the question themselves if it is the level of complexity they enjoy. For me the rules are realy dumbed down and I was expecting something more sophisticated, less abstract, and mature.

Think Tactics and Warfare are at similar level of complexity, and I think Tactics executed it in a cleaner way, It doesn't pretend to be anything else than what it is. That's why I am dissapointed with Warfare, I was expecting less abstract game for a tabletop, and to be heavier than Tactics. There is pleanty of complex wargame ruleset (tons in boardgames), are they better than Dust's? depends what you like, fun game that plays fast? or a simulation of a war.

Even checkers are tactical and consist only of 2 sets of pieces in different colour and a board.

@ItsUncertainWho

We are of one mind here. I can't understand why someone wouldn't even try a game after looking just at it's components but that's what I experienced from a 40k player. I am not saying Dust's components are bad, they just have different audience, they are for the gamers, not modellers.

Galadhir said:

I agree 100% with what you said in reference to It'sUncertainWho, this game is designed for people who like to play games and less for people who like to model "Hobbiest types".

As far as complexity I think the definition of complexity needs to be defined here for people as some see a complex game as one that has many levels of tactical thinking and planning, where as others think of complexity as how complex the rules themselves are. Personally I am a fan of the Andy Chambers hand that is present in this rules set, as it is very simple and to the point on how things work. Armor saves, cover save, and attacks are all very standard and not very complex. "I have x number of dice hits are wounds period, take your saves"

What you call complexity in the game I call note keeping and to me it can ruin a lot of games. unnecessary amounts of rules tracking and note keeping can really ruin a game for me. Don't get me wrong I love playing overly complex games every now and then but I don't make a regular habit out of these games as it takes so much time to do and I am a busy person. I think when it comes to most of the gaming I get to enjoy its because I can pound out a few games in an afternoon with some friends, instead of only one.

Now for me, I refer to complexity as in the level of strategy you can bring into a game. Dust rewards people who plan their games from the get go in the board designing phase I want to provide myself lanes of fire with my snipers as well as LOS blocking cover at regular intervals I can use for progressing my army forward on the battle field. This is a level of strategy only experienced wargamers will take advantage of fully because they think about the coming battle from all its angels and a properly arranged battlefield is a important thing. Next comes designing the mission and the strategy needed in that to combat your opponents list with a scenario that benifits you while being detramental to them is important as well. Again a level of strategy that experienced wargamers will get. Lastly the deployment is another level of strategy and then you play the actual game itself with the reaction system and the command system there are many levels of strategy in this game that only experienced wargamers will get and know how to use. To me that makes this less of a Amature game and more of an seasoned wargamers game as those are the people who are going to benifit from the mechanics of the game itself.

Other games out there that are more clutered do not always lend themselves to deep tactical thinking, 40K for example is more "Complex" by your standards yet the game boils down to limited amounts of tactical thought with simple I move I shoot I assault. Even in Fattasy its I magic, I move, i shoot, I assault. The only levels of tactical thinking are in deployment and the execution of your movements and attacks. In comparison Dust is far more for advanced wargamers I would say it is the Chess to Warhammers Checkers.

I agree with both of you. Part of this game's genious is it scales with the people playing it. Just look at the forum posts. A number of people here have expressed how much fun their 8-12 year olds are having playing this game. Others, like Denied, Craig & the d6g gang, Felkor, Azrell, blkdymnd, DoomOnYou72, myself and many more appear to have vast war gaming experience and are playing a much deeper level of complexity game with other experienced gamers. But it's the same game we're playing. This is what excites me the most about DW: It has mass appeal, which means rapid growth, saturation, and staying power.

Shadow4ce said:

^ what he said the other cool thing is, my 7 year wants to play, I know he'll have some difficulty playing Warfare, so I can teach him Tactics with all the same stuff and work him up to going gridless later.

My 22 month old son wants to play too. Sometimes I'll give him a couple of the minis and first they'll go "pew pew pew" and then they'll start making out. That's about as far as our Dust gaming goes right now. But one day… oh yes, one day…..

Shadow4ce said:

well stated Shadow, again if I haven't mentioned today i am horribly sleep deprived so if my post stop making sense this is why… also does anyone else see that cow in the corner he's been eyeballing me all Fing day!

I think a complex ruleset doesn't have to have a lot of bookeeping, look at chess for example. For me complexity comes from how many different actions you have in your disposition and how can you combine those actions for a tactical benefit. How a rulebook is writen is a different story, FFG doesn't have the best reputation in this matter either. I don't want to comment on this as I am not an editor, but the book could be better organized.

For me complexity doesn't come from rule exceptions like 40k or WM/H, skills, magic etc. I think it must be imbeded into mechanics to be consistient and easy to remember. On this ground I think Warfare is just a little bit more complex than Tactics, and I would put it in lighter wargames category.

It's personal prefference in how complex game you like. All I am saying is for me there could be much more than: Order, Move, Shoot, Suppress, React, Retreet, and in my opinion the last three rules aren't even executed in the best possible way. I have hard times wraping my head around some concepts that the game have. Why for example it is easier to route an elite squad than a regular unit? just because it's got less figures…

You are right, the fact that the game is accessible even for children I see as a big plus. But since we had Tactics covered this ground I hoped for a heavier game, that's all. Don't take it as a personal atack, or atack on the rules itself, it's just my opinion and my preferences.

Excuse me for my misspellings, I haven't put the text thru any editor, I am not a native English speaker.

Galadhir said:

Dont sweat it, you type better than most native English speakers

Denied said:

You are giving Andy Chambers credit for something he did not design. He just slapped his name on the book, and did very little to change the system he had already working and successfull but enough to make one not compatible with another. Probably because of him it was delayed. I would rather see a whole new design by his hand or one that is advanced Tactics. What he released is a Frankenstein sewed together from bits of different concepts.

I think for a light wargame Tide of Iron is a better game from FFG's collection and cheaper, I haven't seen better components in any game, the board is not cardboard, its wood, for the price of 3 walkers you get complete game, if you only can live with the fact that it's a boardgame.