Proxy monkey purchased…$12 on Amazon.

yakmandoo said:

Don't be reasonable.

This is the Internet!

blkdymnd said:

I don't know why you called flawed calculations, I compared the same number of miniatures in the same scale/style from both companies, sold on the same website.

Also, you talk about the Revised Core and some other people talk about "smart" purchase on the internets… I also can buy the Warmachine 2P Starter Box or the Faction Starter Box to save some bucks; and I can also wait for those 17% vouchers to spend less on Warmachine stuff.

This works either way, so please don't take me as an idiot about this issue.

I've given you the numbers, they're from the same webstore the sells the two games, prices without any kind of discount applied and you can check them yourselves.

And efidm : unless you're running some Tier List I don't know your list is 37 points.

And "buying smart" you can have the Caster + 2 Jacks + Man-o-Wars full and the rulebook for 50 USD (or lower, if bought on eBay).

The Khador Force Book is an irrelevant purchase because you'll not need it to play the game (only need rulebook + cards). You can add to what you just bought a field gun, wg full + ua + kov joe + 1 unit of mechs = 18.64 wg fg + 19.44 (6 men WG) + 8.56 (2 wg) + 8.56 (another 2wg or a rocketeer just for the giggles and make it 9 men wg full) + 10 (wg UA) + 10 kov joe + 24.40 for mechs.
TOTAL: 99,60 + 50 (the 2P Battle Box stuff breakeven) = 149,96 USD for a 35point list that has 2 Heavy Jacks, 5 strong Heavy Infantry and lots of cool infantry (from the example list you gave). It's about half the pricetag you put.
I don't know where you've made your calculations but mine are from the same webstore I've mentioned before. There is no "warping" here, just check the prices yourself: www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php

For the Dust stuff:

CORE SET - $86.38 - halved would be $43.19
Blackhawk
Hammers (dunno if with Rhino or not)
Hell Boys
Death Dealers
+1 extra Sarge

The boss $17.26
Gunners w bazooka $21.58
BBQ squad $17.26
Recon Boys $17.26
Grim Reapers $17.26
Steel Rain $28.78
snipers - don't know where they are
observer squad - don't know where they are
rulebook $46.06

$162.59 miniatures without snipers and obs.team
$208.65 w/ rulebook

'Nuff Said!!

Your calculations are flawed because of one key issue here: The prices you quote are wrong, pure and simple. The Dust stuff is too high and the Warmahordes is too low.

Want proof?

Here you go. Note that all the prices are taken from official sources. The Warmahordes prices come from the Warmachine gallery on privateerpress.com , and the Dust prices from the FFG Dust Tactics "products" page . No "smart shopping" here.

Just click the name of any of the kits below and you will be taken to the relevant page on the relevant site with the official prices.

Warmachine Cygnar Heavy Warjack = $34.99 USD.

Dust Tactics Allies Medium Assault walker = $24.99 USD

Warmachine Cygnar Rangers unit box (6 troops) = $30.99 USD.

Dust Tactics Allies The Gunners unit box (6 troops) = $19.95

If you wish to find more prices for comparison, just look around at the links I mentioned and you will find plenty.

And here is one more thing to consider about the prices: the Dust models are pre-primed and pre-assembled, while the PP models are un-assembled on sprues, and they are also not pre-primed. I think it is safe to bet that the pre-priming and pre-assembling adds a couple of dollars to the cost of the models.

'Nuff said.

(Sorry for the double post here, I couldn't get the edits to save on my last post).

Now for the finale. Using the prices I got from Privateer press and FFG I will now break down army cost, using the army list for Warfare that oDESGOSTO posted and the army list for Warmachine that blkdymnd posted (minus the force book since it is not essential).

Warmachine:

Sorscha ( am going with the cheapest one) = $7. 99

Destroyer = $34.99

Juggernaught = $34.99

2 battle mechanik units = $27.99 each, $55.98 total

2 winter guard field guns = $24.99 each, $49.98 total

Widow makers = $19.99

Widow maker marksman = $9.99

Joseph Gregorivich = Couldn't find him, so I am going to assume that blkdymnd meant Kovnik Grigorovich, who is $10.99

Full winterguard with command = $27.99 for the 6-man infantry unit, $12.99 for the 2-man command unit. Assuming that the full unit includes 2 Rocketeers (costing $8.99 each), which most Khador players take with a unit like this, the total for the unit is $58.96. Without the Rocketeers, it is $40.98.

Rulebook = Softcover is $34.99.

Grand Total (with 2 Rocketeers): $318.85

Grand Total (without Rocketeers): $300.87

Dust Warfare:

Revised Core set - $79.95. Halved, it is $39.97, which assumes that you have a buddy you gave the Axis models to. In the Revised Core set, you get:
Blackhawk
Hammers + Rhino
Hell Boys
Death Dealers

The boss = $14.99
Gunners w bazooka = $19.99
BBQ squad = $14.99
Recon Boys = $14.99
Grim Reapers = $14.99
Allies Medium Assault Walker= $24.99
Special Ops Rangers box (includes sniper unit and observer unit) = $14.99
Rulebook = $40.00

Grand Total with halved Core Set: $199.90

Grand Total without halved Core Set: $239.87

And I got all my prices from the official sites.

Yeah, all my prices were from the official sites as well. I took my privateer press prices from their site and the Dust prices from this sites online store.

And I'll even concede that you can use the 2player starter box for privateer press, unfortunately that one extra man-o-war unit you get won't make up the near $100 difference.

Sorscha, the Destroyer, and the Juggernaught come in the Khador Battlebox for $49.99, which lowers the WM total by ~ $28.00.

Either way, you are all comparing apples to oranges, most of the WM stuff is still metal, which costs more. The DW stuff is all pre assembled. But at least someone finally compared the MSRP, rather than a single retailer who may get a bigger break on one or the other. My FLGS gives a 30% discount on WM, because he sells a ton of it, he gives a 25% on DW, and only a 10% on Flames of War. Many manufacturers set minimum advertised prices, and many go through only one distributor, and many are overseas from the store you shop at. All of these can cause discount disparities, therefore comparing MSRP is the closest way to be fair. Kudos for finally doing so.

Shadow4ce said:

Oh, I wasn't strictly comparing, because as you say, the PP models are unassembled metal/restic and the Dust models are preassembled plastic. I was mostly just trying to speak truth to oDESGOSTO, who was making grand assumptions from bad data, which is the my biggest pet peeve.

~Bravester

I will not continue this debate because it's futile, I'm dealing with fanboys here.

For the purpose of Dust people consider the Tactics core set halved and add the rest but on the other hand they pricetag the Sorscha and the two Heavies in their single price. Ridiculous!

oDESGOSTO said:

In my first example, I quoted that in their starter box, not single. But yes you're right, it is a futile argument. Apples to oranges anyway. Play what you like. I do find it funny that you call members of the DUST WARFARE forum fanboys… umm, duh. I wear the Dust fanboy title with pride.

blkdymnd said:

1. if you use the Dust Tactics Revised Box as an example, you should use the 2P Warmachine Starter Box

2. if you maximize the units that the DT Revised Box uses in your example list, you should do the same with the 2P Starter Box (considering full 5 MoW unit)

3. using official prices is just a bad way to make a real comparison where product companies always use their official pricetag to set the highest standart their customers will ever see their products being sold in FLGS or online retailers

4. how many of you bought Dust stuff or Warmachine stuff directly to FFG or PP??

5. the first time people mentioned price comparisons, they talked about full retail

oDESGOSTO said:

Nice to see people stinking to there guns and do what they say. Ohh… wait, still here hmm.

Anyways wasn't this about how to buy for DW not why shouldn't I. If you don't like the game you have the power to start you own thread, instead of side tracking this one. I mean why read a thread if you going to be helpful right?

Agree on proxy-til-they-ship.

My AT-43 figs are now in use for 28mm Tomorrow's War and will see duty as cannon fodder for special scenarios (Hello Soldier 1's) and as proxy for SSU. Allied "super secret" testing of their own Ape Combat K12 units! [Karmans to stage 23 for your call]

Games are about the mix of Rules with Fun.

Best

Luddite

Y'know oDESGOSTO, I'm just going to come out and say what other people on here want to say: you are being a moron. You come on to the official forums for a game, where you will only find fans of the game, and you proceed to make a stink about the price of the game. And you have been doing it for weeks, only posting to mewl over the prices of the models. And then when the fans of the game who wish to see it grow get frustrated with your antics, you get all hissy and call them fanboys. It. Is. Pathetic. Especially when it is obvious that you are a fan of Warmachine (as an aside, I am also a Warmahordes player. Just thought you would like to know that).

Also, points 3, 4, and 5 are nonsensical.

Point 3: This is nonsensical because it is illogical. For one, you condemned me previously for pointing out that you, if you are a smart shopper, you can find Dust models for massive discounts online. And now you are saying that it is a bad idea to use official prices to make comparisons. So what kind of prices do you want me to use?

Just for kicks, here is a list comparing prices from miniaturemarket.com.

Dust Tactics Allies Medium Assault Walker = $16.99

Cygnar Heavy Warjack (plastic kit) = $26.24

Dust Tactics The Gunners unit box = $12.97

Cygnar Rangers Unit = $23.24

See what I mean? When we both use our preferred sites with the prices which will best prove our points, we devolve into mindless lying and raging. You have to have a standard to compare by, pure and simple. Anything else is to embrace madness. Only by using the official prices can we have a logical, though utterly pointless and idiotic, debate.

Point 4: What, exactly, does this have to do with this debate? How does it prove anything, or even produce an argument that is worthwhile. Again, the point is simply a red herring.

Point 5: Same as point 4.

I will reiterate my point that I made in the beginning of this post: it is laughable to expect that people will respect you, seeing what you have posted ever since you joined the forum. If you had kept it to the first thread you started, and then (sensibly) gone on your way, we would not be having this argument. But instead, you have trenchantly pounded the "Dust is Too Expensive" drum in every thread that you can derail. Honestly, how can you expect people to take that? It would be like me going on the PP forums and spending weeks arguing with people that PP charges too much compared to, say, the Perry Brothers, Warlord Games, heck, even GW -the only difference is that the PP mods would have banned me after a week of such behavior.

All the best,

~Bravester

I think the problem is, you are comparing prices in US, where he compared prices in UK @Bravester.

What's the difference if you'll pay couple of pounds more or less? compare price per miniature not what the best point values would be and how much those would cost and there is metal vs. soft plastic, that was primed issue, and walkers that you won't need many anyway. Lets agree that BOTH GAMES ARE EXPENSIVE !!!

Now the question remains, should I invest in Dust or not? my answer - cut couple of circles or bases matching size of dust ones, get pdf book its fairly cheap, and play the **** thing to see for yourself if you enjoy it, if you do, think about if you can live with soft plastic minis If you don't well, this game is not for you then. Audience of this game is still amateur wargamers/boardgamers, that don't mind unpainted models, or starting into hobby.

Don't deny there are fanboys of the game here that disregard any critics of the game, although most of people came to consensus about many things recently.

Galadhir said:

oDESGOSTO was working with Maelstroms games prices converted into US dollars.

Also, thanks for making sane, succinct points, Galadhir. It is always nice to see. I did make the same argument a couple of pages back, but I was ignored, so you may be as well. Ah well, that's the trouble with internet debates.

~Bravester

Galadhir said:

I take a bit of offense to that, and feel several others on these forums will as well. I am far from an Ameture wargamer/ boardgamer and I personally enjoy this game greatly. The strange thing is this game actually scales with wargaming experience, at least in my opinion and experience. The levels of tactics that can be used in this game are great, you have to plan in the terrain deployment phase, the mission generation phase, and then through out the actual game itself with things like command phases and reactions there are levels upon levels of tactical thinking involved in this game. That alone speaks to experienced gamers of all genres.

But that is off topic of the this thread and since the OP of this thread already made another one mentioning he has started buying and playing the game there is little use left to this thread so I am backing off and hoping it will disappear like the Warfare issues one.

I still use the prices of the game as a selling point for it, shilling at warp speed. I like this game; sure, it has flaws, but no more than 40K, and 40K's been around for over 25 years, as opposed to not a lot more than 25 days. The individual soldier minis are about the same cost between the two (particularly after the GW price hike that just went into action), but DW rules on the vehicles. I just showed off the medium walker sets to several 40K gamers today, while we were setting up our DW game (Assault scenario; nasty nasty nasty), pointing out with pride that they were only $25 USD MSRP, and gloating about the upcoming KV47 set that gives you 3 dreadnaught-sized models for under $30 USD MSRP.

Warboss Krag said:

You get one model, but 3 weapon variants. Not 3 walker models.

Denied said:

I just find Galadhir's comment funny as we are all amateur gamers. I don't think any one of us gets paid to play war or board games all day.

A nice article by the folks of BoLS: www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/price-of-wargaming-spring-2012.html

oDESGOSTO said:

Well there you go, about even from a completely unbiased source.

Bravester, I like the swagger of your step. Thoughtful, cogent points! Hoorah.

I was going to bring up the "real-world" prices from miniaturemarket, but you beat me to it.

I don't know how people can logically reason that WM/H is cheaper than Dust Warfare. It simply isn't.

But that's neither here nor there if you're not going to work with appropriate data.

To those folks complaining about models not being available in their single mode, I'll kindly remind you that the characters from the Hero Packs were previously "tournament exclusives" for Dust Tactics, so FFG has plenty of precedent for moving previously 'exclusive' models to the mass market. So, simply, chill out and be patient. I feel like there are far too many panties in a ruffle here because folks are being petulant and impatient….

Denied said:

I don't understand why should you be offended, it is clear they made the game so even newcomers can start playing it right away… I am happy they took this aproach, It might grow the market, looking how hard it is to start with a wargame, a game that you can play out of a box is a godsend.

@ItsUncertainWho : I used wrong word to adress what I meant. It sounds silly to me too when I read it now

It should read: Audience of this game is wargamers/boardgamers that don't mind lower quality components, unpainted models, or for newcomers that just start the hobby but are looking for a fun game with interesting ruleset and setting.

I started the hobby with battlelore, a boardgame not a long time ago, I was fascinated at how the game played but it was light, so I started looking at something more complex, joined a club. The reaction of one of 40k players when I showed him the game was -" are those figures 10mm? they look crap, and are made of low quality plastic, I won't play it" and that was it, didn't even looked at the rules. For me battlelore is the most beautifully produced game.

Battlelore is what got me into wargames too - a great game, one of the best as far as board game components goes.