Adeptus-B said:

Not as far as I can tell from the background in White Dwarf.

As for "it's never been in the background before", if that was the only reason not to include something, nothing would ever be added to the setting, and the setting would never develop or be expanded upon. I personally don't regard that particular argument as a particularly solid one…

I don't think the 360 view helps any, neither did the White Dwarf article I perused at a FLGS.

It desperately needs to be 4-6 inches longer in the tail, the Y shaped tail section is terrible, and the stubby wings on the rotating engines add nothing. This thing ain't aerodynamic, it flies by brute force, why include stubby mini-wings that don't add anything?

The huge turret under the nose is laughable, even by GW's outlandish 40K proportion standards.

The assault cannon turret needs to be replaced with the assault cannons from a Landraider Crusader.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

True dat. I love innovation in the 40k setting, and dislike the "well we haven't seen it before, so they shouldn't introduce it now!" arguments. It's a big galaxy, we certainly haven't seen all it has to offer yet.

As for the Stormtalon, I like the concept and aspects of the execution, but on the whole, I'm not a fan. I like the side gunpods, cockpit and engines, but the tail seems far too short, and as many have pointed out, the underslung cannon turret is disproportionately large. I understand arguments for military aircraft (and Astartes aircraft in particular) being ugly flying tanks, and will admit to a history of gunship/ground attack aircraft being ugly as hell…(A-10 Warthog, Apache gunship, HIND gunship etc etc) but such aircraft tend to have a certain menacing elegance about them, and the Stormtalon lacks that.

It actually reminds me a bit of the XF-85 parasite fighter jet in terms of its overall proportions.

To me, the prevailing design ethic for Astartes equipment seems to be moving further and further away from the riveted, clunky look of materiel used by the wider Imperium to a sleeker, more "cyberpunk" style. In setting terms, this makes perfect sense, (the Astartes will have access to the best, most advanced equipment from the golden age of the Imperium, before the loss of tech-data and the accretion of OTT gothic imagery) but I'm not sure this approach is paying dividends in design terms. Which is better: the clunky, WWII influenced Thunderbolt fighter, which looks like it's held together by rivets, or the higher-tech Stormtalon? The Thunderbolt, unquestionably.

EDIT: I look forward to seeing what the Forgeworld design team will do with it. The Storm Eagle is clearly derived from (and a tremendous improvement upon) the Stormraven, so I imagine they'll do something similar with the Stormtalon.

awful…

borithan said:

I'm old enough to remember when the Thunderhawk (and the Thunderbolt, Valkerie and countless others) had never existed before :*(

It's not a new invention. I read a bit of fluff for it somewhere (either in the White Dwarf issue or on GW's site) that references the Ultramarines using them at Cold Steel Ridge- y'know, at the Battle for Macragge against Hive Fleet Behemoth.

Addressing the Storm Eagle, as brought up by Radwraith- I love that bird, and it's replaced the Stormraven as the small team insertion vehicle of choice in my Deathwatch campaign.

tygre said:

I had the same initial thought. Replace that underchin monstrosity with something smaller.

Onyx Bana said:

Like putting the assault cannons where the bolters are and putting twin-linked bolters (or a storm bolter) in a chin turret.

If you slightly increased the side weapon-pod size, you could fit a Heavy Bolter and Assault cannon in there. Remove the chin turret altogether - potentially put a searchlight in there.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I have a similar issue with the increasing incidence of the Valkyrie. I don't have a problem in principle with it, and it fits what it was originally meant to do (it was a transport for Storm Troopers). When it was just a limited thing issued to certain elite formations (mostly storm troopers and a few specialist regiments) it was fine. However, it now seems they are everywhere (makes sense for GW as they want to sell the models), which is just one element further wearing down the image of the Imperial Guard (from an unwieldy sledgehammer of force… to "supa-elite troopers of doom… who just are shite compared to everything else").

borithan said:

Which is the problem - it only operates on a larger scale… which precludes easy inclusion in the average 40k battle, and which means that there's nothing to provide a similar function on a smaller scale (which, given the background of both the Blood Angels and the Grey Knights, is necessary - they operate in a much more dispersed manner than many Astartes forces - it's also why it's a valuable asset to the Deathwatch). The Storm Raven is described as a newly-rediscovered STC design, it should be noted.

I don't see anything wrong with the Storm Talon's role - the Astartes, given their independence of operation, do suffer from a lack of effective air support. Thunderhawks are relatively uncommon and more valuable as transports (moving forces to and from orbit, or those already on the ground to other theatres quickly) than as interceptors… a role they're too large and cumbersome to effectively perform anyway (in the void, it's a different matter… a Thunderhawk is the right sort of size and has appropriate armament to be a heavy starfighter). The Storm Talon's stated role - air support and fast ground attack craft - fits within the range of strategies the Astartes use beyond Drop Pod Assaults, particularly for chapters that favour extensive use of Land Speeders and Bikes.

borithan said:

Except that your claimed "image of the Imperial Guard" overlooks the fact that the Imperial Guard theme covers pretty much every armed forces archetype spanning the last three hundred years of military history - the Guard are an anachronistic blend of military imagery and strategies. Helicopter transports and gunships have been a part of warfare for long enough that their inclusion as a supporting element for the Imperial Guard makes sense. You might be somewhat averse to it, given your apparently quite narrow definition of what the Imperial Guard should be, but that doesn't make it inappropriate.

borithan said:

Same for me and I'll add librarian dreadnoughts to the bin as well.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Hm. My only issue with catering to this is that the post-Heresy reorganization of the Imperial Army and Legiones Astartes intentionally created cross-dependency to prevent any one branch from having the consolidated space, air, land, garrison, and first strike power to threaten the Imperium on its own again.

Hence why the Nova-class frigate is controversial:

"The Nova Class Frigate is a Space Marine lance boat, much like the Firestorm Class Frigate in the Imperial Navy. It is a much more controversial ship however, because it does not follow the Codex Astartes. It is a pure-breed warship, it can not land troops, or transport them to other ships. It is ineffective in planetary assault also, but a very capable capital ship hunter. Both the Imperial Navy and Inquisition have taken issue with the class, as it encroaches on the duties of the Imperial Navy, and upsets the balance of power within the Imperium, giving too much to the Adeptus Astartes."

From this snippet off of Lexicanum, one can infer that the Codex Astartes and, more broadly, the post-Heresy total Imperial military reoganization decided that the only proper vehicles/vessels for Space Marines were those that could transport Space Marine troops into battle and possibly play a support role thereto. Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers primarily have torpedoes to launch boarding torpedo actions even though they obviously can carry other warheads; they carry drop pods for inserting; their aircraft (Thunderhawks and Stormravens) are heavy support gunships with the primary role of landing troops and armor; most Space Marine vehicles are designed to carry troops (Land Raider, Rhino/Razorback) and those dedicated to support (Predator, VIndicator, Whirlwind) are actually adaptations of the Rhino chassis, not completely original blueprints (unlike the Stormtalon).

This combined-arms notion can be seen as well with the dichotomy between Guard and Navy: the Guard needs the Navy for transport and support; the Navy needs the Guard to actually conquer and hold planets. IG aerial support is provided by Navy pilots; IN marine support is provided predominantly by the Adeptus Arbites (themselves an institution wholly separate from the Navy) or IG Storm Troopers.

So I could see the Stormtalon being another upset to the balance of power: Space Marines as a general rule don't have pure warships, they have giant troop transports which can also shoot at enemy ships as a secondary; Space Marines as a general rule don't field dedicated VTOL air support, their aircraft are primarily designed to land troops, even if they do have formidable weapons as well. Just as the Nova usurps the role of the Firestorm, so does the Stormtalon usurp the role of the IN/IG Vulture gunship.

And that creates great drama if used properly, but on a metagame level it can cause an issue for very valid in-setting balance concerns.

Kshatriya said:

I can see - and understand - all these points.

However, I don't see it in quite the same light. The split between the Navy and the Guard is quite clearly-defined in most cases. The way the Astartes fit into the picture is less so, because of the Astartes role. The Astartes retain fleet assets - albeit specialised ones, and in some cases extensive ones - because they can't operate without them, and they can't just sit and rely on the Imperial Navy for support. Consequently, there can be no expectation of Imperial Navy assets within any warzone where the Astartes operate - combined-arms operations involving the Astartes and other Imperial armed forces aren't the norm, and even in situations where the Astartes are working towards the same objectives as the Imperial Guard or Navy, they may not be operating alongside them. It's similar to how the Astartes maintain their own manufacturing/technical capabilities, psychic assets, spiritual support - their independence allows them liberties and assets beyond what the usually-segregated Imperial forces normally possess.

The existence of Astartes-specific airborne assets is a necessity - they require, for the sake of operational effectiveness, some means of warding off enemy aircraft (alongside the fairly limited existing AA firepower, in the form of Whirlwind variants), and their strategic role as a rapid strike force makes ground-attack gunships an extremely useful asset. Whether or not the Storm Talon impinges upon the role of the Vulture Gunship employed by the Imperial Navy is a matter of politics, and just like the Nova, its existence may be controversial… but that doesn't prevent its existence (afterall, as controversial as the Nova is, it still exists).

Not to detract from the spirited discussion before me, but is anyone else tempted to get one, paint it black with a white belly, and queue up the Airwolf theme?