So You Want to Play an Inquisitor?

By venkelos, in Deathwatch

Morangias said:

venkelos said:

Enemies, like so many others, don't care about an Inquisitor's Influence, so it's no use.

Enemies do care about ten Basilisks bombarding their position.

Enemies do care about a thousand more soldiers engaging them,

Enemies do care about being blown to smithereens by a focused barrage from voidships.

Influence can make all these things happen, time and time again.

So, why do you think that enemies don't care about the Inquisitor's Influence?

Enemies care about all of those things but arguably the Influence system doesn't provide a means by which any of them can actually occur.

While Influence doesn't conjure armies out of thin air, it does let one take control over all available Imperial assets, or at least a significant part of them (depending on how well one rolls).

This is in direct thematic contradiction to the rules of Deathwatch, where such external aid is scarce - you have to pay for it with Requisition at the cost of your personal gear for the mission, or you have to somehow convince the commanders of those forces to grant you assistance, most likely a task requiring a series of social rolls and perhaps even spawning a new Objective. Space Marines are figures of legend and inspiration, but their presence doesn't obviate existing orders. Influence does, thus letting everyone stack up on gear and negating entire layers of possible mission complications. Mind you, this is not due to player ingenuity or anything like that, just a simple roll of the dice.

Morangias said:

venkelos said:

Enemies, like so many others, don't care about an Inquisitor's Influence, so it's no use.

Enemies do care about ten Basilisks bombarding their position.

Enemies do care about a thousand more soldiers engaging them,

Enemies do care about being blown to smithereens by a focused barrage from voidships.

Influence can make all these things happen, time and time again.

So, why do you think that enemies don't care about the Inquisitor's Influence?

Sorry, the primary use of Influence I was mentioning would be at the initial Requisition phase, while back at the Watch Fortress. Unless the mighty Space Marines keep garrisons of lowly Imperial Guardsmen, and Machine Temples filled with stored tanks Space Marines don't use, even a super-Influence Inquisitor can't influence->Requisition a unit of men, or an Artillery Unit of Basilisks. Depending on where they are going, there might not be a standing force of Guardsmen present to commandeer. Say the mission in the main book; the Guardsmen are already wiped out by the Nids, but an Inquisitor could have a vested interest in assuring the Magos is recovered. In his current condition, said Magos won't listen to an inquisitor any more than to the Space Marines. If they did go to a site with a standing, coordinated, allied Guard force, then yes, he/she could do stuff with them, maybe split from the SM's, and help coordinate the Guardsmen, or maybe use his Influence to get a favor or two, maybe rig a distraction, for the Space Marines to perform and insertion, or arrange a Basilisk/Manticore to eliminate a particularly problematic door, or enemy big vehicle. Still, they will probably stick with what they have, and stick with the Space Marines, leaving the Guardsmen to periphery stuff. On the other hand, it's just as likely that, wherever they are going, the only allies are themselves, and they must contend with masses of Nids, Tau, or worse, who don't care about the Influence tests.

Morangias said:

While Influence doesn't conjure armies out of thin air, it does let one take control over all available Imperial assets, or at least a significant part of them (depending on how well one rolls).

This is in direct thematic contradiction to the rules of Deathwatch, where such external aid is scarce - you have to pay for it with Requisition at the cost of your personal gear for the mission, or you have to somehow convince the commanders of those forces to grant you assistance, most likely a task requiring a series of social rolls and perhaps even spawning a new Objective. Space Marines are figures of legend and inspiration, but their presence doesn't obviate existing orders. Influence does, thus letting everyone stack up on gear and negating entire layers of possible mission complications. Mind you, this is not due to player ingenuity or anything like that, just a simple roll of the dice.

I don't want to break said system. Again, such resources are not available often at the Watch Fortress, and depending on the locale of their mission, there either. If such assets were available, I'm relatively sure that the appearance of Space Marines would persuade said Guardsmen to cooperate as able, with or without the Inquisitor; their presence signifies things are worse than the Guardsmen knew. Space Marines = a good chance at victory, so one would readily assist them.

If the Influence just replaces the Req score at the Watch Fortress, it shouldn't be too overpowering, with the usual Req number I saw in the book being around the average an Inquisitor might have for Influence. Influence might be higher, but again, that's the Inquisitor's advantage. Otherwise, I suppose I don't know how Space Marines req stuff like military units. If the WF doesn't keep them on hand, and you are going a bit blind into a battlefield, you wouldn't know how many points to save, if you needed to spend them on location. If it's stuff they MUST get at the WF, so would the Inquisitor, and in this case, the Inquisitor wouldn't keep rolling for stuff; the Influence stat IS his Requisition stat, so it's still a fixed number, and he spends it for each mission. If he would make tests against IG units on scene, it might happen sometimes, but it wouldn't always be convenient for him to, while numerous battlefield sites wouldn't present friendlies to enlist.

Basically, Influence represents two things:

1. The fame and political power the Inquisitor holds, and

2. The assets he can call on to help conduct his business.

In DW, 1 is represented by Renown, and 2 is represented by Requisition. So why introduce a new stat? Especially if it's going to be new in name only?

venkelos said:

If such assets were available, I'm relatively sure that the appearance of Space Marines would persuade said Guardsmen to cooperate as able, with or without the Inquisitor; their presence signifies things are worse than the Guardsmen knew. Space Marines = a good chance at victory, so one would readily assist them.

One thing to remember is that the Deathwatch is often required to operate covertly, without direct support from any other Imperial forces. In other cases, the Deathwatch may not have the political leverage to requisition allies (the Canis Salient is a good example - Lord Ebongrave doesn't trust the Deathwatch, and typically doesn't allow his forces to be borrowed by the Deathwatch). The presence of an inquisitor provides a layer of insulation - the Inquisitor can call upon resources that the Deathwatch may be situationally unable to obtain, without directly involving the Deathwatch.

Beyond that, an inquisitor will often have political influence above and beyond what a Deathwatch Kill-Team can muster - he'll have connections that they won't, with ties to powerful individuals in the Administratum, Adeptus Arbites, Ecclesiarchy, Adeptus Mechanicus, etc that may allow support and options that would elude all but the most politically-adept Astartes.

I think what someone needs to do if that want to make an Inquisitor career for Deathwatch is first decide what should the Inquisitor's role be. Is it that of a team leader? A tactical marine already does an excellent job at that. Most of marine carrers however, have difficultly with any social skills other then command and intimidate, so that seems a good avenue. N0-1_H3r3 is correct when he says that an Inquisitor can open up a lot of doors for a kill-team.

Another thing to consider is gear. Requisiton helps a space marine aquire gear beyond there basic kit, which in the grand sceme of things is highly formitable. What is basic kit for an Inquisitor?

An Inquisitor is never going to be a leader for an Astartes kill team in the same way a Tac marine is. I would look at an Inquisitor in a kill team in the same light as an Adept in the Inquisitors retinue.

What an Inquisitor would provide would be resources above and beyond what a normal kill team would have access to. Administratum, underworld, military, and even xenos contacts, supplies, and information should be able to be had through an Inquisitor far easier and more subtly than through DW channels.

An Inquisitors gear is going to be important for him to be able to keep up with a group of Astartes. I would start an Inquisitor with:

Pick one set: BQ Armor – non-powered
Pick any two: BQ Ranged weapons
Pick any two: BQ Melee weapons
Pick one: BQ special item (anything other than weapon and armor, i.e. force field, vehicle, other significant item)
Roll 2d5: results equal the number of add-on enhancements you can get for your chosen weapons and armor (sights, coatings, other attachments)
Name 3 contacts and what they do. They are loyal, trusted, and powerful in their field.
Name 3 enemies and what they do. They are spiteful, hated, and powerful in their field.

Any other common quality equipment can be obtained as needed on a per mission basis.

At this point I would start trying to integrate the Inquisitor with the kill team for requisition of other equipment.

I'd be inclined to make the equipment choices somewhat more scalable. Gradually accessing better gear is part of the fun in DW, and "pick whatever you want at best craftsmanship" would take away part of that fun. I'd scale it similar to starting gear in RT - either you pick higher "tier" gear, or one of better quality and/or w/ upgrades - but starting from a higher level, as befits the 40k game with the highest power level.

For example, the choices for melee weapons could be, Master Craftsmanship Sanctified Chainsword or Exceptional Craftsmanship Power Sword or Common Craftsmanship Force Sword, Same for other categories, as long as it makes sense.

Also, I'd give the Inquisitor Signature Wargear as a starting Talent, perhaps even two iterations, so he can further customize his loadout from the get go.

This site could benefit from a multi-quote button sorpresa.gif

Morangias said:

Basically, Influence represents two things:

1. The fame and political power the Inquisitor holds, and

2. The assets he can call on to help conduct his business.

In DW, 1 is represented by Renown, and 2 is represented by Requisition. So why introduce a new stat? Especially if it's going to be new in name only?

I know what the trait is for, but squeezing it into DW is a bit tricky. The plain fact is, Renown is only good, RAW for Space Marines; they rarely care what "lesser" men accomplish. Also, Renown reflects a number of "publicized" deeds, while various Influential Inquisitors are well known for their secretive activities. For Requisition, that is what I would have them use Influence for. They just get to start with a bit extra because, even if Space Marines are marginally beyond the Inquisitor's order-range, gear isn't. The Inquisition keeps its own gear at the WF, too, with so many Inquisitors there, and the Space Marines really can take a leap, if they think THEY get to tell Inquisitors what to do. I'd include it as different only because the Inquisitor acquires it a bit differently. Using it to rein in Imperial forces, on the few fields where they are available, wouldn't be too big a thing. Inquisitors + Retinues are often just as stealth-driven, and it can just fall to the GM to limit it's use, like any other seemingly troublesome skill or trait.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

venkelos said:

If such assets were available, I'm relatively sure that the appearance of Space Marines would persuade said Guardsmen to cooperate as able, with or without the Inquisitor; their presence signifies things are worse than the Guardsmen knew. Space Marines = a good chance at victory, so one would readily assist them.

One thing to remember is that the Deathwatch is often required to operate covertly, without direct support from any other Imperial forces. In other cases, the Deathwatch may not have the political leverage to requisition allies (the Canis Salient is a good example - Lord Ebongrave doesn't trust the Deathwatch, and typically doesn't allow his forces to be borrowed by the Deathwatch). The presence of an inquisitor provides a layer of insulation - the Inquisitor can call upon resources that the Deathwatch may be situationally unable to obtain, without directly involving the Deathwatch.

Beyond that, an inquisitor will often have political influence above and beyond what a Deathwatch Kill-Team can muster - he'll have connections that they won't, with ties to powerful individuals in the Administratum, Adeptus Arbites, Ecclesiarchy, Adeptus Mechanicus, etc that may allow support and options that would elude all but the most politically-adept Astartes.

I don't see that as an every time flaw. When it doesn't work for the GM, Ebongrave has been known to flip off Inquisitors; he's a bit crazy. Where he's at, what he's doing, he has a certain bit of insulation, too. If stealth is paramount, the Inquisitor wouldn't just blow it; they are a lot more clever then I credit many Space Marines as being, having the different ways they have to do things.

It's a base he/she covers, where the Astartes might be lacking; it's sort of the other thing this character type would be for. And again, how often are you sending your Kill-Team into places filled to the gills with loyal Imperial forces? Chaos has corrupted or toppled much of it, if they are the enemy, Tau the same, and Nids would just eat them, seeing as I don't remember hearing much of Genestealer Cults in the Reach. Any other source of Imperial asset MIGHT be tainted, without the party's knowledge.

Unholy_Ravager said:

I think what someone needs to do if that want to make an Inquisitor career for Deathwatch is first decide what should the Inquisitor's role be. Is it that of a team leader? A tactical marine already does an excellent job at that. Most of marine carrers however, have difficultly with any social skills other then command and intimidate, so that seems a good avenue. N0-1_H3r3 is correct when he says that an Inquisitor can open up a lot of doors for a kill-team.

Another thing to consider is gear. Requisiton helps a space marine aquire gear beyond there basic kit, which in the grand sceme of things is highly formitable. What is basic kit for an Inquisitor?

Trick; the Inquisitor is a very flexible role, and might have functioned as anything else in life. They would either need a super list of Skills and Crap, though they can still only buy so many, or several trees, like Space Marines use, that divy up their potential focuses. One of their best traits is that ability to flex into whatever gap the party seems to possess, IMO.

That all depends, on what sort of Inquisitor they often are. Many might not use the top-end gear, everyday, but when they are traveling with Astartes, they need to dip into the other wardrobe, and pick out some of their better stuff. Considering how much stuff they might need, to not be a detriment to the Space Marines, this becomes one of the tricky, sticking points. If you want to be a ****, nd make them balance a smidge, they get crap for starting gear, and have to Req EVERYTHING. If giving them gear is where so many people are scared that they will outshine the Super Marines, disadvantage them again, and say "you DON'T start with Power Armor, Terminator Armor, that plasma pistol. Only Space Marines get to do that. Then, they can get most anything they want, but they still have to pick and choose, and in a few more ways than the Astartes do.

One would have thought tis wouldn't prove so difficult. I know that the various games blend expertly, like oil in water, with phosphorus cubes, but to build a Human, in the same system, who makes up for his weaker stats by better skills, and a bit better choice in gear, didn't seem like ti should have been this tough.

ItsUncertainWho said:

An Inquisitor is never going to be a leader for an Astartes kill team in the same way a Tac marine is. I would look at an Inquisitor in a kill team in the same light as an Adept in the Inquisitors retinue.

To me, this smacks of saying the Inquisitor is inferior to them, in standing. While I know they are mighty, and he/she might not be, Space Marines are in no better position to boss one of the Inquisition around then they, nowadays, are to boss an Astartes around.

ItsUncertainWho said:

What an Inquisitor would provide would be resources above and beyond what a normal kill team would have access to. Administratum, underworld, military, and even xenos contacts, supplies, and information should be able to be had through an Inquisitor far easier and more subtly than through DW channels.

An Inquisitors gear is going to be important for him to be able to keep up with a group of Astartes. I would start an Inquisitor with:

Pick one set: BQ Armor – non-powered
Pick any two: BQ Ranged weapons
Pick any two: BQ Melee weapons
Pick one: BQ special item (anything other than weapon and armor, i.e. force field, vehicle, other significant item)
Roll 2d5: results equal the number of add-on enhancements you can get for your chosen weapons and armor (sights, coatings, other attachments)
Name 3 contacts and what they do. They are loyal, trusted, and powerful in their field.
Name 3 enemies and what they do. They are spiteful, hated, and powerful in their field.

Any other common quality equipment can be obtained as needed on a per mission basis.

At this point I would start trying to integrate the Inquisitor with the kill team for requisition of other equipment.

Much of this, I like more. I have no problem with an Inquisitor "paying" for some of his better gear, just like the Marines have to, and standard Influence doesn't let you keep stuff; that attaches a large penalty that I find is hard to often manage. It's not quite Profit Factor, after all. A nice start. It leaves room for them to still get the silly stuff, if they have the points, and doesn't let them be ridiculous.

venkelos said:

ItsUncertainWho said:

An Inquisitor is never going to be a leader for an Astartes kill team in the same way a Tac marine is. I would look at an Inquisitor in a kill team in the same light as an Adept in the Inquisitors retinue.

To me, this smacks of saying the Inquisitor is inferior to them, in standing. While I know they are mighty, and he/she might not be, Space Marines are in no better position to boss one of the Inquisition around then they, nowadays, are to boss an Astartes around.

The Inquisitor is inferior to them when it comes to combat operations. Inquisitors are not Space Marines. Inquisitors, nor any other mortal, should be able to interact, lead, or fight like an Astartes, that's why Astartes are made. A mortal can be quite competent, but will never have the fighting ability of a squad of Astartes.

An inquisitor can "lead" a kill team, but that position of command does not make him the squad leader or a part of the unit as far as squad mode goes.

venkelos said:

Much of this, I like more. I have no problem with an Inquisitor "paying" for some of his better gear, just like the Marines have to, and standard Influence doesn't let you keep stuff; that attaches a large penalty that I find is hard to often manage. It's not quite Profit Factor, after all. A nice start. It leaves room for them to still get the silly stuff, if they have the points, and doesn't let them be ridiculous.

Thanks.The idea with the gear list is to say the Inquisitor has his favorite set of equipment that is always ready to go for situation A or B. If he has a choice this is his go-to gear. This is the "I'm the Inquisitor, fear me" gear. He still might need extra goodies from time to time.

For an Inquisitor, they should be able to acquire any common quality gear they need, when they need it, without question. If they need to be subtle they can just have a set of common armor and weapons that are appropriate for their situation. No fuss, no muss. When things get crazy, and the Inquisitor starts going on assault runs with Astartes, that's when they might need some extra special super gear. The easiest way to handle it would be to put them in the same boat as the Astartes. Give him a pool of points to buy extra goodies, just like everyone else. Even an Inquisitor has to earn the trust of the armorers.

"No Inquisitor, you cannot have that many las cannons. The last time you borrowed fifteen las cannons you only brought back two."

ItsUncertainWho said:

Even an Inquisitor has to earn the trust of the armorers.

On a meta-level, sure. A given Inquisitor will not want to piss off the entirety of the AdMech because they probably have a number of Inquisitorial friends who can really screw him over not to mention then he loses all logistical tech support.

On a smaller level, no. Inquisitors have full legal authority to demand resources. If those resources are not given, they may be seized for the good of the Imperium. The Inquisitor knows it and so do the armorers. It's a very subtle balance of power completely different than the relationship between Space Marines and an armorium.

ItsUncertainWho said:

venkelos said:

ItsUncertainWho said:

An Inquisitor is never going to be a leader for an Astartes kill team in the same way a Tac marine is. I would look at an Inquisitor in a kill team in the same light as an Adept in the Inquisitors retinue.

To me, this smacks of saying the Inquisitor is inferior to them, in standing. While I know they are mighty, and he/she might not be, Space Marines are in no better position to boss one of the Inquisition around then they, nowadays, are to boss an Astartes around.

The Inquisitor is inferior to them when it comes to combat operations. Inquisitors are not Space Marines. Inquisitors, nor any other mortal, should be able to interact, lead, or fight like an Astartes, that's why Astartes are made. A mortal can be quite competent, but will never have the fighting ability of a squad of Astartes.

An inquisitor can "lead" a kill team, but that position of command does not make him the squad leader or a part of the unit as far as squad mode goes.

I meant more along the lines of the Astartes have the authority to boos an Inquisitor around, which has always been laughable. I'm not so fond of the recentish changes in canon, where the Astartes of the Deathwatch don't answer to their patrons, the Ordo Xenos. They did the same to the Grey Knights and the Ordo Malleus, but I don't see as much division in their stance; the Malleus find a threat, and send the Grey Knights to eliminate it. I know it was better for the fluff of the Space Marines, but still, it seems weird that the ones who stated the Horus Heresy (Space Marines in general) have no oversight in the Imperium they aide; a whole Chapter could be playing Alpha Legion, and the rest might never know, and no one outside the Chapters is allowed to investigate. Oh well, that is neither here nor there, as no Space Marine can order an Inquisitor, either; he might have an easier time physically bullying the Emperor's servant, but the consequences will be dire, later. That's more what I meant. If I was an Inquisitor in the Kill-Team, I wouldn't seek to lead the Space Marines around by the nose, but I would hope that such illustrious, educated individuals would still have the farsight to see the Inquisitor isn't just a follow-along. They know stuff no Space Marine will ever know, and have their own skill sets. They know how to deal with PEOPLE, something I often think many Space Marines suffer with. Yes, in the field of combat, the Inquisitor will be a bit of a lightweight, hiding behind the best gear they can find, and trying to support the Space Marines, rather than win the day through force of arms, but he also might have some stuff no Space Marine might get. An OM Inquisitor might carry an Anointed Daemonhammer; no Space Marine not in a video game will likely heft that. I'd rather they not steal the show, but they CAN carry their own, and such.

ItsUncertainWho said:

venkelos said:

Much of this, I like more. I have no problem with an Inquisitor "paying" for some of his better gear, just like the Marines have to, and standard Influence doesn't let you keep stuff; that attaches a large penalty that I find is hard to often manage. It's not quite Profit Factor, after all. A nice start. It leaves room for them to still get the silly stuff, if they have the points, and doesn't let them be ridiculous.

Thanks.The idea with the gear list is to say the Inquisitor has his favorite set of equipment that is always ready to go for situation A or B. If he has a choice this is his go-to gear. This is the "I'm the Inquisitor, fear me" gear. He still might need extra goodies from time to time.

For an Inquisitor, they should be able to acquire any common quality gear they need, when they need it, without question. If they need to be subtle they can just have a set of common armor and weapons that are appropriate for their situation. No fuss, no muss. When things get crazy, and the Inquisitor starts going on assault runs with Astartes, that's when they might need some extra special super gear. The easiest way to handle it would be to put them in the same boat as the Astartes. Give him a pool of points to buy extra goodies, just like everyone else. Even an Inquisitor has to earn the trust of the armorers.

"No Inquisitor, you cannot have that many las cannons. The last time you borrowed fifteen las cannons you only brought back two."

I agree, though limiting them to what all that can be is the clincher. I'd say they get better stuff, being of lesser stock, but that just makes them try to be better, and that's annoying. Limiting them too heavily, however, takes away from who they are; an Inquisitor, empowered by the Emperor to take whatever he needs to achieve the mission he bears. If that means turning a standing army to his cause, or taking that sacred relic from a church, and actually USING it, so long as another Inquisitor doesn't interfere, they have the right. Again, this is a double-edged sword, and one doesn't want them to shine amongst the Space Marines, making one wonder what the Imperium's greatest soldiers are really for. It is a tricky tight rope to walk.

Kshatriya said:

ItsUncertainWho said:

Even an Inquisitor has to earn the trust of the armorers.

On a meta-level, sure. A given Inquisitor will not want to piss off the entirety of the AdMech because they probably have a number of Inquisitorial friends who can really screw him over not to mention then he loses all logistical tech support.

On a smaller level, no. Inquisitors have full legal authority to demand resources. If those resources are not given, they may be seized for the good of the Imperium. The Inquisitor knows it and so do the armorers. It's a very subtle balance of power completely different than the relationship between Space Marines and an armorium.

Yeah, so long as another Inquisitor doesn't own it, an Inquisitor is in his right to seize whatever he wants. He can't usually keep it, and must do something if it is lost, but the galaxy is his oyster. Granted, as he can't boss Space Marines around with impunity, THEIR armories are closed to him, unless he politely requests, but how much of that stuff will be the right scale, with all Space Marine stuff being sized to their hulking armor?

This wouldn't matter so much if FFG had not left the foresight at home on this one issue, and not thought of this eventuality. I know two people, personally, who would refuse to play this game, as is, because they can't play their gender. Playing a Space Marine, even one who isn't the usual, Duke Nukem like space hick many other sources paint "space marines" as is no more appealing than me playing a game of Sailor Moon RPG, and having to be one of the Sailor Scouts; I'd have a very difficult time getting into character, and not botching it up with dumb behavior, or some other failing. They should have left something, ANYTHING in here as a thought for that, or said "oops, we boned. Let's fix that little big oops in this upcoming DW supplement". Certainly, there aren't female Space Marines in canon (possibly the best fix), and this is Space Marine's game, but when you finally say "well, we played as the "regulars" of the Imperium, serving one of its hidden Hands, and then rose to the pinnacle of Human achievement, and played people who can own planets, buy armies, etc., and now, finally, YOU can be Space Marines, GW's own chosen babies!" you have to expect that the game is going to garner lots of attention, and hope. Then you sit down, get ready to build characters, and boom, "oh, there's no option for that." Then we get the threads about "girls won't play this, because Space Marines is sexist, and being the favored property of GW, they get all the updates, new stuff, etc." The guy i learned 40k from, his fiancee wouldn't play much, because of this issue. SM's were blatant no women, IG didn't demonstrate often, Orks, Nids, Necrons, and Tau were pretty nongender, and that left ugly Chaos of Slaanesh, and Eldar, whose tactics she couldn't wrap herself around. This was a smart woman, great grades in law school, going places kind of person, and not one who USUALLY let sexism bug her, but this became a sticking point, after he had bought 6 armies. While I know that there are many women who gladly play this game, again, it just seems weird that they didn't think they'd have female parties interested.

I still didn't expect this idea to be so difficult a one. Sort of expected DW character - Astartes stuff + some skill improvements + slightly better gear access would be rather easy, but nope.

Designing a new career or class is difficult in virtually any system. espescially when the class your designing is very differerent from existing classes.

@Venk: I agree changing canon to allow for female SMs would be the easy fix, and also the worst given existing canon. How many fans would they alienate vs how many new fans would they gain? I'd guess they'd alienate more than gain, frankly. Of course, I find the issue of "there's no females in this tabletop army" to be a very, very silly gripe since it's not really an RPG, it's a wargame (and I have trouble viewing the tabletop in the roleplaying light as well).

For a true RPG yes, I can see the issue because it's non-inclusive. I would bet FFG did some amount of research to show that the bulk of its customers are male and thus don't care, not like FFG can change GW canon without GW's permission anyway (and I doubt GW would ever retcon female Space Marines in for the above reason of alienation by huge canon switch).

Maybe ultimately they just didn't care that females would either have to genderswap to play this RPG or not play it, which would not surprise me given the ratio of male vs female gamers, and the thought that 3 (and soon to be 4) game lines that have female character options are "good enough," that the 5th is fine as it stands with canon.

I cannot really think of a good option allowing a female character that doesn't break things one way or the other. Obviously Ascension is a pain in the ass in a lot of ways. Any female Ascension class will be overshadowed in combat by a Space Marine, except a Primaris. Every Ascension class will be able to do certain things 20 times easier than a Space Marine (social, stealth, etc) by virtue of how the DH/RT leveling systems work. Even the Ascended Sororitas with Faith Talents will either dominate and obviate SMs in a non-combat field or be destroyed in combat, even with Faith Talents (and I'd probably let them use them with a Cohesion-like Faith Pool rather than require spending Fate, just to give them more options).

Really there is no good option outside of playing Black Crusade where you can mix mortals and Astartes in a more balanced way, in a system designed to cover that eventuality.

I've recently been working on a House rule set that allows mortal and astartes characters to be played next to each other, as it's come up in the games I run. It's still in a very early stage at this point, but that very early alpha-test is up in the House Rules area. So far with my group, the early playtesting is showing that it does a fairly good job at letting mortals and astartes interact (even if the astartes DO have bigger guns and better armour :D)

Not a Dark Heresy player, so I'm in the dark on specifics.

I understand that an Ascended character has a ton of skills and awesome gear. But in combat… using DW enemies… can a Sister of Battle keep up the pace with damage output versus single enemies as the marines can?

I would imagine they can't take nearly the amount of incoming damage as a marine can. But if I was a girl and I didn't want to play a marine, I'd be willing to take my chances as a more fragile character.

CrunchyDemon said:

Not a Dark Heresy player, so I'm in the dark on specifics.

I understand that an Ascended character has a ton of skills and awesome gear. But in combat… using DW enemies… can a Sister of Battle keep up the pace with damage output versus single enemies as the marines can?

I would imagine they can't take nearly the amount of incoming damage as a marine can. But if I was a girl and I didn't want to play a marine, I'd be willing to take my chances as a more fragile character.

Search for Female Space Marine or FSM and try to carve your way through the rants for the good crunch.

There is no short answer to this- it all depends. You can use relics or the crazy skill system from Ascension (it is very crazy, btw, the themes in that book are far different from the themes in DW) or the Sister's fate system but you'll never get a 1:1 ratio. This will simply put more work on the GM to ensure that everyone in the group is having fun.

Super simple solution is make them a Sister but just use the Marine build; fluff away the organs and the like as genetic implants or something that are super expensive and very rare but for game rule purposes do the same thing. Then come up with a reason the two branches of the Inquisition are working so closely together.

Edit: More direct response to your post: No. Without unnatural characteristics and astartes gear other characters cannot dish out or take damage in the same way. Other characters might do well in specific circumstances, but things like hordes tend to tear up non-Astartes characters quickly, and they don't tend to have weapons that do as much damage with as high a rate of fire as the Astartes gear.

I think that this thread is a bit misleading.

It's more "what do i suggest for players who refuse to play space marines in a space marine game". And when you figure that Deathwatch is built as a combat heavy game, with social challenges being a big issue for marines, then introducing social specialist careers from other systems just doesn't cut it in my mind. It'd be far more logical to introduce some of the careers from Only War and tool them up to be storm troopers, or some kind of veteran guard unit that has been attached to the marines for the duration of a campaign.

Ultimately though, space marines are not male - they are very much a non-sexual entity that has been effectively neutered during their creation. I find that trying to explain this to female players of ten helps, but the rest of the time said female players just aren't interested in the hack and slash machismo of the Deathwatch Game and would 100% of the time prefer the political intrigue and exploration game that is Rogue Trader. Rogue Trader has the added bonus of being able to justify 1 or 2 marines being attached to the Rogue Trader for a specific task by the Ordo Xenos.

By the Emperor do I love this discussion!

A friend of mine is very interested in becoming an Inquisitor character, so I look forward to how this alternative method of developing an Inquisitor character turns out. However I've been very clear to my friend on how the Inquisition operates. An organization suspicious of itself and one that exerts control over other institutions to keep things in check. Inquisitors do not have many friends amongst themselves, right?

So use that! Do not let the PC Inquisitor strut to much of her or his nigh limitless power. Thus use fellow Inquisitors as a story device!

Right now I have an NPC Inquisitor whom is a Canoness who went on to becoming an Inquisitor.

She is very pious and devout in carrying out her ever increasingly zealous view on destroying the xenos. In fact eventually I hope to develop her into a radical Inquisitor of sorts, one that will become a rival of my friends Inquisitor. Knowing my friend, his character will simply be a carbon copy of himself in the 40k universe, so I feel his methods will help bump against other Inquisitors.

The best element I love about the Imperium is how fractured the power structure is. For instance the Deathwatch and Ordo Xenos are two separate entities, both of whom work very close in concert with each other to protect humanity from the worst of xenos threats. Because of this I've made very sure that my players know the chain of command, they operate on loan to Inquisitors, but do not bow to their every whim.

For this reason Watch Captains have way more oversight and supervision during the operations that Inquisitors request Kill-teams for. Deathwatch is referred to as Command, while the Inquisition is referred to as Control. So when an Inquisitor wishes for a Kill-Team as an asset on a mission they have to go through a watch captain (More often the one that is nearby) in order to gain such an asset.

The Nova Sierra Lord Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos is also the Inquisitor of the Chamber Militant of Watch Fortress Mortara (I know a mouth full of titles) thus he is Control's leadership, its administrator and ultimate authority of all operations that the Ordo Xenos carry out. He or She must work with the Watch Commander of Mortara's Deathwatch "Chapter".

This is how I will introduce my friend's Inquisitor, he and I will first work out a back story and then build a story/mission that he gets such a valuable asset to utilize. Yet how his character works with the Kill-Team in pursuit of this objective and the Watch Commanders own standing orders which dictate all Command assets is the fun part to watch unfold!

Its fun right now cause the Sororitas turned Inquisitor is presently the Controller of the Kill-Team, so later on they may be acting against a "friend".

The only thing that 'tanks' as well as a Space Marine is another Space Marine! So, if you are determined to play something other than a Space Marine in Deathwatch, you need to get over the idea of 'tanking' right now. Of course you will not do as well in combat as an Astartes, any more than an Astartes would do as well as a Scummer at searching for underworld rumors in Dark Heresy. If you are not playing an Astartes, choose a speciality other than combat that makes you a useful addition to the Killteam. Stealth is one obvious possibility. Encyclopedic knowledge is good. Social skills can be very useful. Other game systems do this all the time, and no-one complians that the party's thief isn't as sturdy in straight-foward combat as the fighter.

-But carry a Force Field. Just in case…

All it takes to use an Inquisitor in your kill team is a little ingenuity and roleplaying - plus, a GM that can say "no" and have it stick. Rule number one: The GM is always right.

First of all, the Deathwatch works at the behest of the Inquisition in the first place - meaning that there is usually more than one request for their help at any given time. Make the Inquisitor spend his or her Influence in order to actually recruit the Kill Team!

Second, unless the Inquisitor has a private stash of Astartes-issue gear, his or her Influence will get exactly nowhere when it comes to procuring gear for the Marines. They can only get what's actually in the Armory, which is usually limited. If you don't want the Kill Team to dress up in Terminator Armor and wield mastercrafted Plasma cannon, all you need to say is that those suits the company does have are already fielded by another team working for an inquisitor with larger influence.

Third, most of the time those Inquisitors who actually get down and dirty with the Marines are too busy to actually do all the political wheeling and dealing to acquire excessive Influence. Those that do have big influence might need to stay undercover and thus be unable to excert much of it due to the risk of getting caught by the enemy.

Fourth, the Inquisitor has other things to do than ride herd on the Marines all the time - separate him/her from the group if you think they need an opportunity to use their own social skills. The player might enjoy a bit of DH-style solo adventuring from time to time, otherwise they wouldn't have chosen an Inquisitor to play as. (The rest of the group can roll some non-combat acolytes if they don't want to get left out of this plot…)

Fifth, an Inquisitor having more diverse and powerful psyker powers than brand new Deathwatch Librarian is not surprising - up until joining the Deathwatch, the Librarian has lived a mostly regimented life with little chance for independent action, due to being low man on the Librarium Totem Pole. The Inquisitor, on the other hand, has been thinking on her feet for years already, and has developed some tricks of her own that didn't come from books…