I wonder noone asked this before so I will beacause I am not sure how his ability works.

Greatjon Umber says: Challenges: kneel to have Greatjon Umber participate in the current MIL or POW challenge as either the attacker or as the defender.

I assume that if for some reason i cant declare defenders (Naval Support, Knights of the Vale etc.) I still can use this guys ability to have him participate as defender. Is this correct? And how does his ability works with stealth, I think that in that case I cant declare him if he is stealthed out.

Rozy said:

Well, he's a reprint, so maybe that feeds into why no one has asked since the Core Set was released.

If an effect prevents you from declaring defenders, his ability can still be used. You aren't declaring defenders when using his ability. However, if Greatjon cannot defend for some reason (including being bypassed by Stealth), you could NOT use his ability. Of course, the attentive player, afraid that Greatjon will be bypassed by Stealth, would just use the ability in the Action window between when attackers are declared and stealth is assigned/defenders are declared....

Thanks, exactly as I thought.

I am still wondering how many cards are reprinted, since I stardet play like a 1,5 years ago I never saw the old cards in play so I just keep beeing suprised when someone tells me this was a reprint.

Almost every card in the Core Set is a reprint or a modified reprint.

Thorondor made a list of the origin of every card in the core set 8Reprint, modified reprint, new card). It's somewhere on these boards...

ktom said:

I do not quite follow this...? Action Window? Is this a case of who speaks first? Ug if so.

action window just refers to the time in which players can take actions, it has nothing to do with who speaks first as each player has an action in each window which does not close until both players pass on their action window.

The reason it does not matter who speaks first is because you can;t rush an opponet out of an action window. I.E. there is an action window before challenges are declared, meaning you can play an action (i.e. Any Phase: blah blah blah) before your opponet declares a challenge. The polite player asks any action before i declare challenges, and a non attentive player would not have a qualm wiht you saying, hang on i have an action before challenges are declared.

Tian of House Zi said:

Good question. I'm new to the game too, and the vocabulary takes some getting used to.

Once you feel like you understand the rules as presented in the Core Set, you will find the definition of "Action Window" and a host of other technical terms in the FAQ, which can be found here: new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp . See in particular the section called "Timing Structure."

The "Action Windows" i believe are shown in the core rulebook. They basically tell you when you are allowed to take player actions (Such as Any Phase and Challenge actions). This is a common feature in card games, though most call it by a different name. In the case of Greatjon Umber, his ability can be used during the different Action Windows of a challenge, which are (in order):

1 -- After attackers are declared but before Stealth Targets are chosen

2 -- After defenders are declared.

This is also an Action Window between challenges, but Greatjon's ability requires a Challenge to be taking place in order for it to be used.

Also keep in mind that Greatjon's ability allows him to participate in a challenge between two opponents in a multi-player game. Although this gives you no immediate benefit, it could mean the difference between who wins or loses that challenge, which could be a benefit to you in the long run (such as stopping an opponent from winning an unopposed challenge).

Tian of House Zi said:

As Lars, says, the game is broken up into "Action Windows." There are set rules for who has the opportunity to do things in an Action Window. Also, there are two different types of action windows, the "player" action window and the "framework" (which I usually call "game") action windows. In Player Action Windows, the players take turns triggering appropriate effects and abilities. Each separate effect or ability is considered to happen within its own player action window (and Responses always take part in the window of the effect/ability the are responding to). Game action windows are specific activities that have to take place for the game to progress. A game action window cannot take place until all players are ready for it.

That's all an abbreviated (and probably confusing) version of the timing rules in the FAQ. A practical example of how Challenges progress through the flow of game and player action windows may help clarify the comments on Greatjon. Challenges look like this:

1. GAME action window: the attacking player announces a challenge type and declares/kneels attacking characters.

2. PLAYER action window (collective): Players take turns, starting with the FIRST player, triggering effects/abilities that are legal one at a time. It doesn't matter how many, and no one can go on to #3 until all players are done triggering effects/abilities.

3. GAME action window: the attacking player assigns Stealth targets and the defending player declares/kneels defending characters.

4. PLAYER action window (collective): same as #2

5. GAME action window: the challenge is resolved by (in order), determining a winner by counting STR, settling claim (if applicable), awarding power for an unopposed challenge (if applicable) and awarding Renown power (if applicable). - Once all 4 are done, players can Respond to any or all of those things in any order.

So, the comment I made about the "attentive" player and Greatjon was supposed to say that instead of waiting until #4 to trigger Greatjon's ability and have him enter the challenge as a defender, the player could do in in #2. The advantage would be that since Stealth is assigned in #3 (and once he is Stealthed, he couldn't use his ability to jump in as a defender), the defender would pre-empt the attacker's choice.

There is no "who speaks first" because the game rules say that the attacker cannot "speak" to stealth until after all players say they are done in #2. Of course, a player could forget to use Greatjon in #2 (no one has ever forgotten to trigger an effect, right?) and say he's done. That may seem like a "who speaks first" thing, but it's really an "I spaced out" thing.

This is fabulous. Four simultaneous replies to Tian's question. Welcome to the game, Tian!

Seriously, this is a great player community. I'm sure I've spent more time reading the boards than playing the game since I bought it , but I enjoy the boards a lot. (Plus, I get to stay sharp by playing a mental game of "What's ktom going to say to this question?")

Im sorry if this is an old thread to post (its my first time here) but we've been discussing this same question and i have a new doubt.

As Ktom says, Great Jon Umber is able to enter a Challenge as a defender before the attacker uses Stealth but, if he is targeted by Stealth, shouldn't he be unable to defend anyway?.

Its true that he already is "inside" the challenge, but now he is being targeted by an ability (a keyword to be precise) that makes him unable to defend. Even though he is knelt, shouldn't he be "fired" from the Challenge since he no longer could defend?.

Aertes said:

No. Stealth creates a new condition on a character that it "cannot defend," but it does not specifically remove a character from a challenge. Once a character is in a challenge, it must be specifically removed from said challenge if you want it to stop participating.

Look at it this way, if a character is killed, will making it "cannot be killed" undo the fact that it is already dead? No. Same thing here. If Greatjon is already defending, making him "cannot defend" does not "retroactively" undo the results of triggering his ability.

I have a question about the interaction between Greatjon Umber and Fishing Net.

My opponent decided to attach Fishing Net on my Greatjon: "Attached character cannot be declared as an attacker or defender, and does not count its STR for dominance."

But Greatjon says: " Challenges : kneel to have Greatjon Umber participate in the current military or power challenge as either the attacker or as the defender." It doesn't say I have to declare him as attacker or defender, so the big question is: can I use his triggered effect to attack or defend if Greatjon is attached with Fishing Net?

I would think yes, but it seems too much rule lawyer for me...

I hope my question is clear (I am italian and my english is not so good...) and I thank you in advance for your answers.

Well, you are right. You can use the Greatjon´s ability to have him participate in the challenge as an attacker or defender. Simply because of the reasons you already mentioned, by using teh ability you are not exactly declaring the Greatjon as a defender and thatá why the fishing net probably should be played on the Greatjon.

thorin_81 said:

You are exactly correct that you can use his ability to "jump" him into a challenge as attacker or defender and for the exact reasons, too.

The only rules lawyer thing here is that since you cannot declare him as an attacker when Fishing Net is attached, you will not be able to start a challenge on attack with just him. When you declare attackers at the beginning of a challenge, you cannot use his ability to replace declaring attackers. But once a challenge is started with other characters, he can jump in.

Ok, it's all clear now. Thank you very much for the quick answers!

Sorry, it's me again...

Can Greatjon Umber use his triggered ability and enter in a challenge if he doesn't have any icons (for example if he is the target of "To Be A Viper")?

I would hope yes, because it seems to me like the old Night's Watch Agenda (many of them have no icons, but they can participate in military and power challenges) or Walder Frey (no icons but he can enter the challenge later and counts his strenght).

No icons does not matter, he still can use his ability since it does not say if you have this icon you can participate in this challenge. It just say that he can participate there and no other condition. So I say YES he can participate.

thorin_81 said:

Im afraid theres a little error there. True that Walder Frey can enter challenges with his passive ability, but we will count no strength since he has no challenge icon, the only thing he will count is his Dedaly keyword unless he was added an icon somehow.

Likewise, if Jon Umber entered a challeng thanks to his ability, but he had his challenge icons blanked, he would be no help im afraid.

Aertes said:

I don't think so. It doesn't matter if a Character has the Icon or not in a Challenge to count it's strength. Only at the Point to declare attacker and defender the Icon is important.

Seznal said:

Huh?? is that so? we never counted his Streng because he has no Icon. I've checked the rulebook and seems like you're right... did we do it the wrong way all the time?

Aertes said:

Yes, you have played him wrong. The strenght counts.

This is a very common error. People have been trying to remove, or not count, a character in a challenge if it loses the corresponding icon pretty much forever. So yeah, you've been playing it wrong, but it's a common mistake.

It sounds like you found this in the rules already, but when you add up the total attacking/defending STR, you count the STR of all participating characters. So icon status at that point does not matter, only if the character is attacking or defending. Icon status is only looked at when you declare attackers or defenders. So if you have a way of getting a character to participate in a challenge without declaring them, or a character loses an icon after it has been declared but before challenge resolution, that STR is counted because the character is still participating in the challenge.

Hi i am completely green but i have been using his ability very different.

To my understanding is he can jump into a challenge after all attackers and defenders have been announced to sway the fight.

So for example:

I declare i'm attacking with 2 str for the axe, and my opponent declares a 3 str character to block, the defenders have now been declared can i now use great umber ability to participate in the challenge?