Kyoshiro VS. Donovan.

By Hanzo2, in UFS General Discussion

Posted at

ctr2yellowbird said:

trane said:

Homme Chapeau said:

JTakaS4 said:

could you still build a solid kyoshiro or donovan deck without the defender loop? i was browsing around for singles and defenders are sold out everywhere.

Most definitely! Defender loop, honestly, is a crutch. It's there if you really want it, but Order's so goddamned strong right now you could very well make a deck without it and win.

defender loop isn't a crutch, it's order's best kill. yes you can win without it but it is a whole lot harder.

Hatman was referring to Defender Loop as a "creative crutch" (right?)--players don't have to innovate or think creatively when they have proven and efficient methods with which to kill players.

Also, was it mentioned that Donovan can run Rejection? How about Rejection and Hybrid Style??? gui%C3%B1o.gif That, right there, is all that Donovan should need for damage defense (but he still needs to combat "return to printed effects"), but what good damage defense does Kyoshiro have that Donovan can't also run? Hmm.... Hybrid Style those F-Spikes back to Donovan's hand... smells like synergy!!!!!

ohh. i though hatman was saying that d-loop was a crutch and order could kill more efectively without it. hybrid style is practicly as good as gorgeous team and has order chaos, definately an awesome card.

Posted at

MMM.... Synergy.

Yes I belive as was stated a while back on the ol' forums of yore taht donovan could well be the new Ibuki because he " plays the game well" is finally starting to emerge from darkness.

Everybody put Don on your radar!

p.s Hanzo may just have enough synergy though.

Posted at

Hanzo said:

MMM.... Synergy.

Yes I belive as was stated a while back on the ol' forums of yore taht donovan could well be the new Ibuki because he " plays the game well" is finally starting to emerge from darkness.

Everybody put Don on your radar!

p.s Hanzo may just have enough synergy though.

hanzo definately has enough synergy. he is one of those few chars that can agro really well in b3.

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What hanzo does do it gets past your loops. You cant loop rejection if its discarded from your hand right away, and your hybrid rejection loop means squat to infinite kick that only has to deal 1 damage (this is why defender loop is so strong as well)

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Protoaddict said:

What hanzo does do it gets past your loops. You cant loop rejection if its discarded from your hand right away, and your hybrid rejection loop means squat to infinite kick that only has to deal 1 damage (this is why defender loop is so strong as well)

a looped rejection definately does something. it means that you will often have to go through 25 plus cards to kill your oponent, which could easily mill you in a long game.

Posted at

Protoaddict said:

What hanzo does do it gets past your loops. You cant loop rejection if its discarded from your hand right away, and your hybrid rejection loop means squat to infinite kick that only has to deal 1 damage (this is why defender loop is so strong as well)

Rejection is useless against hanzo kick is 3 diff and you will mill out faster unless your like an 80 card deck if your looping rejection with defender.

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MegaGeese said:

If only I'd kept that Tag Along in my hand in our second game of Top 8, I would have won (that game, probably still would have lost the match) ;_;

You made it to GCC? Who were you playing? =D

I ran Alex for singles and the only losses that knocked me from a top 8 spot were to Ben and Ben, both piloting HANZO. Also, they are both fellow members of team ATL, so I play them every week. Hanzo is kind of a bad matchup for alex, just cause, you know... he can kill you at any moment with just a bitter rivals down. And TWOP/BRT pretty much stops me from tag alonging. Add in a mid game set up time for alex as well as 2 tag alongs against me in a row and you got game. My match against Shoemaker took all of 5 minutes.

Posted at

Scubadude said:

Protoaddict said:

What hanzo does do it gets past your loops. You cant loop rejection if its discarded from your hand right away, and your hybrid rejection loop means squat to infinite kick that only has to deal 1 damage (this is why defender loop is so strong as well)

Rejection is useless against hanzo kick is 3 diff and you will mill out faster unless your like an 80 card deck if your looping rejection with defender.

Hooray someone else knows!

I do this all time against Defender decks gui%C3%B1o.gif

Posted at

Hanzo said:

Scubadude said:

Protoaddict said:

What hanzo does do it gets past your loops. You cant loop rejection if its discarded from your hand right away, and your hybrid rejection loop means squat to infinite kick that only has to deal 1 damage (this is why defender loop is so strong as well)

Rejection is useless against hanzo kick is 3 diff and you will mill out faster unless your like an 80 card deck if your looping rejection with defender.

Hooray someone else knows!

I do this all time against Defender decks gui%C3%B1o.gif

or unlese you have a huge amount of momentum.

Posted at

Ah, so you were Ben's first round singles opponent? I seem to remember him saying something about playing against one of the ATL players first round.

Donovan is quite simply the better character of the two. Kyoshiro is fantastic (like I'd really badmouth him...), but not quite as strong. D will keep pelting you with attacks over and over while then solidifying his own board position. Kyoshiro will...draw really fast and then fail to get relevant pieces out as quickly as needed, because SURPRISE! you checked all your Red Lotus already >_<

Hanzo vs. Kyoshiro or Hanzo vs. D...yeah, Fred's probably right. It will likely come down to who wins the toss half the time, and who gets the better draws the other half.

But D vs. the notorious Ibuki Artist is a no-brainer.

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MegaGeese said:

Ah, so you were Ben's first round singles opponent? I seem to remember him saying something about playing against one of the ATL players first round.

Donovan is quite simply the better character of the two. Kyoshiro is fantastic (like I'd really badmouth him...), but not quite as strong. D will keep pelting you with attacks over and over while then solidifying his own board position. Kyoshiro will...draw really fast and then fail to get relevant pieces out as quickly as needed, because SURPRISE! you checked all your Red Lotus already >_<

Hanzo vs. Kyoshiro or Hanzo vs. D...yeah, Fred's probably right. It will likely come down to who wins the toss half the time, and who gets the better draws the other half.

But D vs. the notorious Ibuki Artist is a no-brainer.

the master of order has spoken. the char he played for gcc is inferior.

Posted at

MegaGeese said:

Ah, so you were Ben's first round singles opponent? I seem to remember him saying something about playing against one of the ATL players first round.

Donovan is quite simply the better character of the two. Kyoshiro is fantastic (like I'd really badmouth him...), but not quite as strong. D will keep pelting you with attacks over and over while then solidifying his own board position. Kyoshiro will...draw really fast and then fail to get relevant pieces out as quickly as needed, because SURPRISE! you checked all your Red Lotus already >_<

Hanzo vs. Kyoshiro or Hanzo vs. D...yeah, Fred's probably right. It will likely come down to who wins the toss half the time, and who gets the better draws the other half.

But D vs. the notorious Ibuki Artist is a no-brainer.

Nah, I was ben's second round opponent. Which was weird, cause I won my first round, and Ben played marco first round and lost. And Ivey and Ben lambright were paired 2nd without matching records as well. ATL kind of got stuck playing eachother A LOT with some horribly conflicted records.

Posted at

Makingsenseofus said:

MegaGeese said:

Ah, so you were Ben's first round singles opponent? I seem to remember him saying something about playing against one of the ATL players first round.

Donovan is quite simply the better character of the two. Kyoshiro is fantastic (like I'd really badmouth him...), but not quite as strong. D will keep pelting you with attacks over and over while then solidifying his own board position. Kyoshiro will...draw really fast and then fail to get relevant pieces out as quickly as needed, because SURPRISE! you checked all your Red Lotus already >_<

Hanzo vs. Kyoshiro or Hanzo vs. D...yeah, Fred's probably right. It will likely come down to who wins the toss half the time, and who gets the better draws the other half.

But D vs. the notorious Ibuki Artist is a no-brainer.

Nah, I was ben's second round opponent. Which was weird, cause I won my first round, and Ben played marco first round and lost. And Ivey and Ben lambright were paired 2nd without matching records as well. ATL kind of got stuck playing eachother A LOT with some horribly conflicted records.

wow that sucks, you guys all played each other in the same tournement?

Posted at

trane said:

Makingsenseofus said:

MegaGeese said:

Ah, so you were Ben's first round singles opponent? I seem to remember him saying something about playing against one of the ATL players first round.

Donovan is quite simply the better character of the two. Kyoshiro is fantastic (like I'd really badmouth him...), but not quite as strong. D will keep pelting you with attacks over and over while then solidifying his own board position. Kyoshiro will...draw really fast and then fail to get relevant pieces out as quickly as needed, because SURPRISE! you checked all your Red Lotus already >_<

Hanzo vs. Kyoshiro or Hanzo vs. D...yeah, Fred's probably right. It will likely come down to who wins the toss half the time, and who gets the better draws the other half.

But D vs. the notorious Ibuki Artist is a no-brainer.

Nah, I was ben's second round opponent. Which was weird, cause I won my first round, and Ben played marco first round and lost. And Ivey and Ben lambright were paired 2nd without matching records as well. ATL kind of got stuck playing eachother A LOT with some horribly conflicted records.

wow that sucks, you guys all played each other in the same tournement?

For ATL, it was very much like a local tourny. most of our losses were sustained from other ATL players. Didn't help that we had 2 running alex and 2 running Hanzo.

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Why didn't you guys sandbag or play different decks to avoid that problem ?

Posted at

Donovan is better than Kyoshiro, and they are both WAY better then HanzoKick. Any order deck that has a half decent build has more than enough ways to stop Hanzo loops.

I also really don't believe that 1 3 round game is considered Play testing. When I play test a deck, I play at least 10-30 games pre sideboard, and probably about 30-40 games post sideboard. Hanzo-kick is just a little less control enough to deal with Order.

Donovan has the symbol spread and the better abilities. He has access to the most dominant control pieces, along with a giant card pool to draw from as far as the attack line-up goes.

Kyoshiro has the symbol spread, though I believe he has a bit more synergy between the control pieces. Unfortunately, and it does matter, he doesn't have access to Chester's backing to keep the control pieces up. Chaos gives him a little more options as far as the kill, but it still isn't Feline Spike.

When it comes down to it, what matters the most is the support for Order. Straight order isn't as strong as Order-Water or Order-Chaos, but Order Chaos has a little less control than Order-Water (Never thought I would say that). Add that to the fact that Donny has the possibility to aggro well, and we definitely have a winner.

Plus, Donovan surfs in space. Like a pro.

Posted at

Both Ben's saw that Hanzo was one of the best decks in the format. In playtesting, they were on even footing and so going in they knew one was going to top 8 and the other would get pushed to the bottom.

For me, I had been running Alex for 2 months prior to the regional and had won every local tourny I entered the deck in. So I knew it was good. I completely had both of the other alex decks on diversity going into the final round. But the Hanzo matchup is a bad one for that deck, so I got rolled, making that my second loss against a Hanzo deck and cutting me away from top 8.

What it comes down to is that ATL is not afraid of diversity. We were not about to sand bag into another character just to gimp ourselves when it came to the top. So me and Shoemaker Scrubbed it and Ivey and Lambright cut ahead. There is always a next time. Which is why I'm so freaking excited for april and may.

Of course, when that time rolls around, lets just hope pairings aren't that dumb. Lets see, Marco played 4 members of ATL, I played 2, Ben S played 3, Ivey played at least 1, Ben L played at least 4, I have no idea how many Ian played. REALLY GUYS. We see enough of eachother every week.

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Makingsenseofus said:

Both Ben's saw that Hanzo was one of the best decks in the format. In playtesting, they were on even footing and so going in they knew one was going to top 8 and the other would get pushed to the bottom.

For me, I had been running Alex for 2 months prior to the regional and had won every local tourny I entered the deck in. So I knew it was good. I completely had both of the other alex decks on diversity going into the final round. But the Hanzo matchup is a bad one for that deck, so I got rolled, making that my second loss against a Hanzo deck and cutting me away from top 8.

What it comes down to is that ATL is not afraid of diversity. We were not about to sand bag into another character just to gimp ourselves when it came to the top. So me and Shoemaker Scrubbed it and Ivey and Lambright cut ahead. There is always a next time. Which is why I'm so freaking excited for april and may.

Of course, when that time rolls around, lets just hope pairings aren't that dumb. Lets see, Marco played 4 members of ATL, I played 2, Ben S played 3, Ivey played at least 1, Ben L played at least 4, I have no idea how many Ian played. REALLY GUYS. We see enough of eachother every week.

I am excited too guys I can't wait to hang with you guys at the SCC Marco called me this weekend and said you guys are good to guy which is great !!

And Ryan Donovan's surf board is amazing ask megageese!!

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^ Troof.

Speaking of which...I needs moar ATL'd Donovans =/

This debate seems settled...

Posted at

definately settled. now that i realize that 1 tag along and kyoshiro is done, i have declared don the victor.