So the default challenge level for melee strike is (1d). How about for magic? Our group is new and we've been using (1d) as our default challenge level for pretty much everything. Using flameblast as an example,quick casting while engaged will result in a daunting (4d) challenge level,1 challenge die for the default challenge level,1 for the flameblast action,1 for quick casting, and 1 for being engaged. Is that correct? Seems pretty harsh to me. Almost seems like magic should be an easy (0d) challenge level by default,nobody is really opposing you. So how do you GMs approach magic?

I think that only action cards that are "vs. Target Defence" have the default challenge level of 1d, all other actions only have the difficulty printed on the card.

The FAQ should help you.

new.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/wfrp/support/FAQ-9-2011/WFRP_FAQ_9-8-11.pdf

k7e9 said:

Yup. Pretty much.

"Skill vs Target Defense": 1d

"Skill vs Skill": See rules for opposed skill tests.

"Skill": 0d

Got ya,that makes much more sense. Thanks.

So the correct answer for the scenario above is three challenge dice on the check? The Quickcasting card lists its difficulty as one challenge die just for Reckless stance. This is separate from the challenge die applied to the spell cast. Is that applied somewhere?

In addition, the caster rolls a single challenge die for the Channel Power check? That's still 4 challenge dice on one turn then? From my reading of the rules, the wizard may very well be rolling 3 challenge dice or more every turn unless you are going to just cast every other round.

The melee attacks are a single check with just one challenge die. It does seem incredibly risky as a caster and their damage is probably less than most people with a decent weapon.

Talryn said:

Well the thing is, wizards should try like hell not to be engaged. I kind of thing that if your wizard is engaged, either the other players have failed or the GM has won.

(I just finished reading Vampire Slayer, a Gotrek and Felix Warhammer book. In the final fight the wizard, Max Schrieber has been engaged by some skeletons. He fights them with his staff and, once he's defeated them that way, then cast his spell. I thought it was a neat (and sometimes rare) moment of the rules and the book being in agreement.)

But yes, the quick casting is an entirely seperate roll from the spell roll. So, first you roll from quick casting and then, if you have enough power and haven't blown up, roll for the spell itself.

We're just starting to play the game so I'm trying to understand the rules. I'm trying to make sure I understand the discrepancy in challenge dice between wizards and the other careers in combat.

With the abstract movement system, I haven't understood how you can prevent a wizard from being engaged. It doesn't seem like you can really stand in the way of an attacker very well. Even if the wizard isn't engaged, I still noticed the higher number of challenge dice. If you're going to quickcast, which seems necessary, it makes the spells one extra challenge die and they all seem to have at least one challenge die on them. Are there other options to prevent that? It isn't foolproof but I guess the rest of the party can try to engage all the enemies first. It makes it cost extra maneuvers to get away. You would want to engage all of them or as best you can.

I'll admit it's hard to envision a wizard doing well in melee and I definitely cannot see a wizard doing well in melee combat against multiple creatures. I'm not familiar with the books though.

The Quickcast card in the Player's Guide shows a challenge die on the Reckless side. Does this apply to something? The card itself has no check and the description is clear on a challenge die added to the Spellcraft check for the spell. Does that mean the Channel Power while Reckless and Quickcasting is two challenge dice (one of them coming from Channel Power itself)? I don't have access to the actual cards to check it, just the Player's Guide so it's possible that is a misprint too.

So far I just envision wizards suffering from constant failure to get off a spell. The challenge dice seem nasty look at the statistics on them. I'm wondering if I've misunderstood the mechanics though.

Ok, I haven't looked at the Quickcasting and Channeling cards in ages and now see how they could be confusing.

Quickcasting isn't really an action card, it's more of a reminder card for something wizards have to do a lot of. If you note in the "action check" space (the band under the name of the card) it says, "None Required." So you don't have to roll any dice for it, it just reminds the player of the special rule. The challenge die in the Difficulty Modifier (the symbol in the top left corner) is there to remind the player to add one challenge die to his spell casting roll. He doesn't have to add the die to the Channel Power roll (because the text on Quickcasting only says to add it to the spell roll).

So when Quickcasting:

Channel Power: One Challenge die (for the Difficulty Modifier on the card)

and then

Spell Card: The Difficulty Modifier on the card, plus one Challenge die (for the text of Quickcasting)

Does that make sense?

So quick casting only adds one die to the spell casting roll, which is a little rough, especially with more difficult spells. But that's because magic is meant to be dangerous. If you've only just started playing, yeah that extra challenge die can be a *****, but as a wizard gets more powerful it's not that big a problem. I think you'll find before the wizard gets through rank 1 it moves from dangerous to calculated risk. Although it increases the chances of a Chaos Star result. Even at just five advances our Celestial wizard is rolling a handful of dice, usually countering that extra challenge die easily. Usually.

As for wizards in melee, if they're fighting in a confined space the wizard may just be out of luck. In an open environment though he should be keeping himself at Medium range (or longer if his spells allow it) so that he doesn't get drawn into a brawl. Remember, when standard NPCs take fatigue for additional maneuvers it's tracked like extra wounds. So if a creature gets into melee with the wizard the wizard can disengage (free maneuver), move to medium (one maneuver, takes a fatigue) and then potentially quick cast and attack the creature at range. Next turn if the enemy wanted to push the attack he would spend his free maneuver to move to close and then have to take a fatigue/wound to engage.

The wizard's allies can help, meanwhile, can serve as a buffer with a little thought on the players part. Say that there's a melee sepcialist who's charged with keeping the spell caster safe. If he begins the combat engaged with the wizard, any enemies who engage the wizard will also engage the fighter. If the players have initiative over the enemies the protector can use Guarded Position which will help defend the wizard if an enemy closes, engages and attacks. And finally if an enemy does engage the duo, on the wizard's action he can spend a free maneuver to disengage, a maneuver to move from close to medium range (taking one fatigue) and still cast a spell.

The opponent, meanwhile, is still engaged with the ally, and so if he wants to pursue the wizard he has to spend his free maneuver to disengage from the ally, an extra maneuver to move from medium to the wizard to close (which normal NPCs and henchmen take as wounds, not fatigue!), and a THIRD maneuver (meaning a second wound) just to engage the wizard so he can attack.

And this doesn't take in to account any special action cards like Body Guard (from Omens of War, I think) or other teamwork/support cards that a defender can use to support a spell caster.

I mean, I can't imagine my group being noble enough to spend an advance to take a card that will help another character, even a team mate, but it could happen.

Thanks for the info.

Yes, that's what I thought it was. It's mostly the extra challenge die and the two rolls needed to get off the spell that worried me.

Yes, I will not hold my breath on anyone going out of their way to protect me if I play a wizard. :-)

Guys,

I am playing a bright wizard and when channeling power on a reckless stance + quick cast, i think that 2 challenge dies should be added to the spell check.

In both stances it says to add 1 challenge die to the spell check but the difficulty level in the reckless is 1 challenge die whilst in conservative its none. So i believe the rules mean that if you quick cast in reckless, its much more dangerous.

What do you think?

Forget about the quickasting "action card", they should not have it printed, it is not even an action card. Just stick to the rules, see for example Player's Guide pg. 113

"Quickcasting: Normally, a character can only perform the action listed on one action card during his turn. However, spellcasters can attempt to both channel power and cast a spell on the same turn, if they are willing to accept more risk. For a character to cast a spell during the same turn the character channels, the player must add an extra challenge die to the spellcraft check"

Easy as that.

Hi,

@Yepesnopes, I think the use of Quickcasting as an action card is validated by its vulnerability to recharge tokens when triggering a delay symbol using conservative stance . Otherwise it would indeed be a waste of gaming space.

No:12 said:

But quick casting isn't an action in itself, it's a basic rule that applies to every mage to allow them to perform channeling and casting in a single turn, it would be like taking away a 'warriors' ability to manoeuvre and attack in the same round through a delay.

Hi,

I prefer to think of Quickcasting in a similar fashion to the Enhance action cards for the melee/ranged types, or the add on combat cards such as Whos Next.. It is an optional extra for spellcasters, that they all have access to. It does seem to fit with the intention of the system IMHO, to have the capacity to slow overly cautious spellcasters who start generating delays, by temporarily removing that access.

I dont think it is quite the same as taking away a warriors manuever from delay symbols, the equivalent to that would be taking away a wizards maneuver….

If we suppose that "Quickcasting" is an action card and not just an ability, and then you can place recharging tokens on it. Why "In great need" is not an "action card"?

"In great need", similarly to "Quickcast" for wizards, allows priests to also invoke a blessing and curry favour during the same round, it works nearly identically as quickcast, but there is no printed card for it (as far as I know).

Hi,

To be honest I've no idea, but then its not the only inconsistency between wizards and priests! Armour, skill options etc… I'm by no means saying its fair (priests generally get a good deal over wizards), just that when the Quickcasting action card was released it kinda made sense to me from a game mechanics point of view. If you'd prefer not to use it as a seperate action, burn the card and job done

No:12 said:

It is an option, but I found burning the card may be a bit over the top, for this reason I preferred to email the always helpful Dan Clark, here is his answer for those who may be interested:

"Rule Question:

Dear WFRP developer,

In the rules of Warhammer 3rd ed, it is stated that quickcasting is a special ability available to all Wizards (Player's Guide pg 113 or Tome of Mysteries pg 35). Later one, with Winds of Magics, an action card featuring Quickcasting was released. Does it mean that Quickcasting is treated as a regular action card? Can you add recharge counters as a result of a delay rolled on a conservative dice?
Or the intention of the "Quickcasting action card" is only to have the rules of quickcasting at hand?

Best regards,
Yepes

Answer:

Yepes,

The "Quickcasting Action Card" is meant only as a rules reference card that a wizard player can keep in hand.

Enjoy the game!

~Dan Clark
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games"

Hi,

@Yepesnopes, Nice work on clearing up the confusion sir! (doffs hat in acknowledgement) Although is burning ever really over the top?

Guess this goes as a house rule for our group then. In which case I'm grateful to FFG for printing it as a card also, giving awkward buggers like myself the opportunity to stitch my wizard players up.

PS; My apologies for slight thread derailment.