"Y'know, a real killer would've asked what that red button was for."

There is indeed the problem of learning how to use one of those nice looking xenos gear. It can be done, but with quite some trial and errors. You cannot espect someone to pick up a pulse rifle and knows how to operate it properly. You might as well shoot yourself while trying top figure out how to reload the thing. Try to imagine an arquebusier trying to handle that AK 47 instead of his trusty musket. Grin as he tries to trumpload that one with one of his bullets and powder and then trying to figure out where to put the spark to ignite the charge.

Remember, that in 40K people know next to nothing about how technical things work. Most really are ignorant barbarians who have learned a few tricks how to handle their guns.

Callidia makes a good point, human technology in the 41st millenium is all based on the presise repition of the forms, that's the whole cult of the omnisiah.

It's not, lets figure out how this stufff works so we can make more and make it better it's more, this is the way you do it, pull the red thing then flip the yellow switch then spin around three times shouting praise the omnisiah then turn the thing and it works!

Plus, and I cannot stress this enough, filth xenos tech really does have it in for you. Personally.

Its twisted, alien Machine Spirits are constantly on the lookout for ways to undermine you and get you killed.

Don't trust it!

AluminiumWolf said:

Can I hire you as the commisar for my group? Seriously….

Hordshyrd said:

either commisar or tech-priest

Couple points on Xenos tech:

In the novel "Kill Team," a human that tried to steal an empty battlesuit suffered death-by-electrocution when the suit's MIU didn't recognize his brainwaves as being of the Tau species.

Necron weapons would phase out after being severed from their user.

Eldar weapons are powered by psychic energy/the warp… I don't know whether this comes from the Eldar wielding them or not but it would certainly be a major moral hazard at the very least. Some descriptions I've read of shuriken catapults describes them as not even having a trigger--the Eldar triggers it with his mind.

As for Imperial Guard weaponry--

People forget the Space Marines are even more hide-bound and limited than the Imperial Guard (blame the Codex Astartes). The Imperial Guard may wield crappier stuff on average, but they have near endless variety (and power at the higher end of the spectrum). Just because it's not in the latest codex doesn't mean the Guard can't or never had access to something.

Off the top of my head… there's the mole mortar. The Assault Laser (basically a SAW version of the Multi-laser). Every type of lasgun/ammunition under the sun from the type with 300 weak las shots per clip to 1 space-marine-melting hot shot per clip. There are accounts of storm trooper regiments armed with light power armor, other storm troopers armed with bolters, battalions of skimmer tanks, mad max motorcycle regiments, any and every drug/gland stimulant imaginable, two-handed executioner chainswords, melta-flamers, any and every grenade/bomb-type under the sun, graviton guns, graviton grenades, grav-chutes, anti-grav jetpacks, bionic implants/enhancements, heck even Skitarii troopers (technically not Guard, I know--although on that note I'd rather there was a Skitarii class than a Tech-Priest Enginseer class… considering the other books all have Tech-Priest classes). I believe the Thunderfire Cannon was originally a Guard weapon. Not just lascannons but Rapier destroyers. Chemical/Biological warfare units/grenades/weaponry/etc. Remember, as each world equips its own regiments, every level of technology imaginable is represented somewhere in the Guard, even troopers with anti-grav powered battlesuit armor and particle beam gatling cannons.

On a personal note I like the idea of kit that's only marginally better than standard but highly personalized. Ten different types of basic lasguns. Ten different types of basic autoguns. Do I take 4 micro-frag grenades or 1 regular frag grenade? Do I take a stick grenade with increased throwing range or a pineapple grenade with increased penetration? Etc.

One of the beautiful things about playing Guard on the tabletop is the specialization. You can tailor your army to your opponent's weakness better than any other faction can. If you know what your opponent is playing as in advance, you practically can't lose.

Presumably, as a Kill Team made up of hardened veterans, your characters can get their hands on any of this stuff^

If you take a look at the Guard, their public face is pretty much the only thing that's standardized. You can find a pretty hefty variation in equipment; if you take a look at the IH expansion to DH, you can find flamers that spout nerve gas instead of flames, a hybrid between an autocannon and an assault cannon that has a tendancy to break down, the plasma gun that is literally two plasma guns fused together, the assault lasgun with a ridiculously high rate of fire (but does slightly less damage), and the power armour-that-isn't-exactly-power armour used by officers of Scintillian regiments, for example. All of these and more are issued to the Guard and/or PDF in some way; in fact, I can see a lot of the equipment being used in DH will also make an appearance in OW. Sure, we probably (almost certainly) won't be getting our hands on a bolter loaded with psybolt ammo or a Rad-cleanser, but a lot of the DH equipment can be found among the masses of the Guard. I'm guessing that we'll see lots of variants of the same type of gun; for example, the Alcher Mark IV autogun which is reliable and easy to operate but only has a single shot or a full auto setting and the Armageddon-pattern autogun which has a lower ROF but is more powerful than your average autogun (both of which makes an appearnce in DH). Or, instead of simply "bolt-pistol", we've got "Garm-pattern bolt pistol" (which is featured in IH and is apparently a favorite of the Commissars), or "Sacristian bolt pistol", or "Mars-pattern bolt pistol". Even for lasguns, we can find things such as the "Roth "Lightning" Lasgun", or the "Mark III Short Lasgun", or even the "Lasburst Twin-lasgun". I can definitly see OW characters having a descent variety of gear; maybe not many - if any- exotic weapons (except for needlers which is stated in the Codex to be used by some Guard marksmen) but a pretty good selection of most other pieces of equipment. Just my 2 cents.

CapitolImperialis said:

I dunno, there has to come the point when we say there aren't that many copies of some of those weapons. One of the biggest WTFs I have ever had with 40k is that the Imperium has nigh-limitless numbers of worlds at their disposal, and a limitless workforce to man numberless factorums, but somehow, mostly through Tech-Priests being greedy d-bags, or an amazing ability for all of Humanity to forget stuff, there are so many items that they can't remember how to manufacture, don't have access to the plans for, or don't have enough factorums that know how. It is one of the dumbest things in the setting, when only the least equipment can be well mass-produced. Seriously, how hard should a bolter be to make? "I designate this planet, Seti Gamma III, as a Forge World to crank out these guns." "But my Lord, we don't have the facilities." (snivel). Why? The only good answer has ever been that, if every one of these guns needs a "machine spirit", and I don't know why they do, maybe these are hard to come by. Otherwise, with the sheer resources the Imperium has, they should be like the Galactic Empire, a single, unified, oppressed by the jack-boot wearing Gastapo force able to crank out ridiculous amounts of anything they need. Why else would I want 1 million worlds in my Imperium?

K, my whining aside, this detail seems to be the lynchpin. Many regular-seeming items are actually rather rare, and hard to come by. Most of those items you mentioned are nigh one of a kind, in their own way, and everything in DH assumes that the players using it are valuable Acolytes/Throne Agents, who are few in number, and need a bigger bump to make up for fewer guys. The Imperium literally doesn't care about its soldiers, most of the time, and equips them with only the barest essentials; unautomated things that can take a hit, keep working, and rarely break down, since most people are too thick to know how to fix them. If I were a soldier in the US Army, they'd grind into my head every working bit of that gun they give me. I'll know every part of it, how to maintain it, can take it apart, inspect it, reassemble it, and if something breaks, know what part to borrow from my killed buddy's gun, so that the two of us are still fighting strong. I often think that, in many ways, if the IG's gun breaks, he needs a Tech-Priest to minister to the dumb thing, and coddle it back into working, and he certainly won't tell the unenlightened Guardsman how to do it. Most of the cool things aren't used by rank-and-file IG; Acolytes, maybe forner IG Acolytes, get to use them, and then return them.

I do know that some IG DO get better stuff; Storm Troopers get hot-shot weapons, there are heavy weapons, a few power weapon options for Officers, etc., but the likelyhood that the Guard will die, coupled with the fact that, unlike the tech, the Guard is so easily replaced as to be like another grain of sand in a desert, means that giving them better tech is like handing it to the enemy looters, yourself.

I HOPE that IG will get some nice gear options, and since the players should portray "important" IG, rather than the matchsticks they will be surrounded by, they may actually get to use them, but the setting often seems to preserve those for the Inquisiton, the precious Space Marines, and museum/cathedral/collections, rather than in the hands of the front line guys. Those guys are more the diversion, so the Acolytes can sneak in, and assassinate the Leader, or to soften up the numerous tough stuff, so the 5 Space Marines can rush in, without being overrun by Gaunts or Genestealers, and kill thousands, because they DO get the best gear.

Well, one issue is cost. There's a scene in Purging of Kadillus where a Marine tells a guardsman that a single Bolt for his bolter cost more to make than the guardsman's lasgun and all. So there is a bit of a cost issue. And the reason the guard doesn't have them as standard is it isn't worth the cost, they'd miss too much!

Not that hard to make? Well, remember this is a special sci-fi gun. It's not just a high calibre gun. It might require special alloys to manage the force necessary. And the chemicals for the ammo might be even more restrictive. Suddenly Mass Production is a lot harder to manage. That's stuff we don't know. Heck, the chemical compounds to make a bolt - both the alloys and the chemical propellant, and even the explosive element, might be super hard to make and rare. It's easy for us to look at it as 'just' a form of modern, high calibre weapon, but it isn't. It's something far beyond anything we have. The way the 'mass reactive' part is described makes it almost sound like mini antimatter in a way.

Put another way, this is a gun with a high calibre (Like, Anti Tank Rifle calibre), that the ammo AFTER being shot out at point blank kicks in a rocket fast enough to make it go faster than the speed of sound it is ejected at. Then explodes on entering if it doesn't go straight through. Made out of mythical sci-fi 'ceramite tips' and such. We could not make anything like that which could be used by a normal human at our current technology. At least not that wouldn't be classified a 'heavy weapon' by militaries. Something that would require bracing.

And cost will dictate military necessity. There are plenty of real world examples of that. Where militaries use easier to produce weapons even though there are better options out there. But those are mostly in the hands of elites and special forces if used at all. (Napoleonic wars, for instance, the Rifled Musket was rather old tech by that time. But it just wasn't feasible to arm entire armies with them.

And then the 'ritual' and 'tradition' part is in place. NEVER underestimate the power of religion or monopoly, let alone the two when combined. Especially when the ones who have a brutal stranglehold over technology discourage innovation in any form. Oh? You invented a spring alloy that might allow an autogun to shoot 1 more round a second? HERESY! EXECUTE THE VILE TRAITOR TO THE MACHINE GOD!!!! Never mind that two systems over, at the same time you're being executed, someone discovers an STC with the same technology and suddenly it's not heresy or offensive to the Omnissiah. But too late for you, you made the mistake of innovating. Heck, the average Techpriest probably wouldn't know -how- to even check the oil of a vehicle if i t was 10 millimeters over from where it was on the thing he was trained to use. Their entire machine using ability so tied into ritual that anything out of the ordinary may as well be alien technology. "I only know the catechisms of the Ford Focus. The Ford Escort's catechisms are beyond me. I have no clue how to replace it's vital petroleum lifeblood."

EDIT: Then there's the somewhat hard to represent in any game fact that, well, a Lasgun is just as, or at least nearly as likely to kill the majority of enemies a guardsman will face as a Boltgun. Yes, the latter will probably be slightly more effective. But when you compare the cost benefit analysis of a hundred just out of basic humans with bolters to a hundred with lasguns. I bet that engagement would be almost 50-50 in who would win, and the latter would be tremendously cheaper to arm… so why bother with boltguns? (A real world example of this is the AK47 versus more modern weapons. The AK is used by all sorts of armies and rebels the world over, because it's frankly just as likely to kill as any of its more expensive contemporaries. And much cheaper and easier to make for very little difference in the necessary performance factors)

Sure here's foes out there where the Bolters might start to make a difference, but they're so rare (relatively!) that it's just not worth the effort and probably cheaper to move specialist forces half way across the galaxy to engage them than to arm the regular forces with the sort of standard kit that would make the difference on the off chance they encountered them. And going back to the cost thing, why bother arming 100 guys with Bolters over Lasguns when you could make Lasguns for them and the difference in cost would allow you to outfit them all with Chimeras and/or a couple Leman Russ Mainline Battletanks to back them up. What's 100 Bolters gonna do that a few tanks couldn't (again, the vast majority of the time. As THAT is what militaries need to plan for, not the rare exceptions - that's what Elites are for. Well, and heavy squad support weapons.

Plus, finally, there's likely another good reason. Reliability. Lasguns work everywhere. Every time. You can recharge your ammo on a campfire if absolutely needed They're hard to break. Bolters? Require very careful maintenance.

Guardsman can shoot 60 times on 1 mag, and he can take let say 5 clips. Bolter on the other hand have 24 shot in 1 mag. So lasgun 5*60=300 shots, bolter 5*24=120 shots. Lasgun - 4 kg and bolter - 7kg. In modern gun (M16) ammo weight is 17% of gun so in lasgun it weights 0,7 kg*5=3,5kg and bolt 1,2 kg*5=6kg. So we see that ammo for las gun is half of bolter ammo weight and have almost 3x more shots. Also you can recharge your las ammo by putting it in the sun, fire or i think the most common plugging it to any and all Imperial Guard vehicle. IG is force which use devastating firepower and if they had to conserve their ammo they would be less effective.

When you shoot laser it's easier to hit that shooting ballistic weapon. You have no recoil. Weather and distance doesn't mater to you. So less able soldiers are better with such weapon than more advance.

coolzyg said:

Actually, weather and distance are your worst enemies with any kind of direct energy laser weapon (like any las technology in 40k) because of diffraction and of loss of focus on the beam; this is why lasguns don't have "till you can't see them anymore" as a range in game.

There's an ancient aphorism, the most quoted version of which is attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte: "Amateurs talk tactics, veterans talk logistics." Guard units are set up for not the best stuff, but the easiest to maintain (particularly in a society which is generally mechanically uneducated) and supply. If you need to supply a company of Marines with bolter ammo (more-or-less 150 bolters, pistols, and heavy bolters), with a general daily fire unit of, say 200 rounds per weapon, that comes out to about 30000 shells a day. That's several crates dropped in; doable. Now, scale that up to a smallish Guard unit of say, 5000 line troops. Now you're talking a million shells a day; even if they mass and bulk half that of Marine bolter shells, that's still almost 17 times the supply transport required, every day . And put in the fact that often this equipment has to be hauled from star to star, and isn't easy to replace…Now you see why valuable supply bottomage is used for such niftier stuff like cannon rounds.

'Nuff said.

Dulahan said:

My complaint partially stems from the fact that ONLY Humans, the most numerous and, in many ways, the most powerful race in existence, suffer from this problem. Tau tech leaves ours much in the dust, and they don't have any difficulty mass-producing their stuff; they can build Crisis Suits like the Imperium builds lasguns. The Eldar get to make their stuff out of wraithbone, and I guess psychoactive plastic is easy to come by, when you are the second most proficient warp-manipulators, and the best that don't worship the Ruinous Powers. Orks blatantly cheat, Nids mostly cheat, and that leaves Humans in the lurch. I'm sure that the top two, Tau and Eldar, get out because they don't suffer the scale dilemma; we might have single armies bigger than the bulk of their entire races' fighting force, at certain points. Still, I get grumpy when we seem to be the ONLY race that has this problem, sort of like when I used to complain that Chaos can only corrupt Humans, because most other 40k races have a built-in defense mechanism, be it the Hive Mind, the Waagh!, low Warp presence, being machines, or sheer willpower. That often leaves only Humans, and their Space Marines, to succumb to the ravenous hunger of Chaos, as we crushed most of the other little races who might fall to temptation.

I do see some of the advantages that a lasgun can have, and it vaguely makes my point; the high-ups might say they don't need better. Their big advantage is often MANPOWER, not firepower. I guess it's a bit of a holdover from Star Wars. Stormtroopers are, in many ways, like IG, with strength in numbers, crap-plastic armor, aim an Ork might laugh at, and a survivability rate that can't be measured in double digits, but their guns, at least, are still among the best that their are (and in the RPG, that "crap-plastic" armor is the overall best in the setting). However, I do see your overall points. I just hope that they DON'T overlook vehicles, so that the tanks can do their part, because if it deploys as an infantry game, IG might want a few bigger guns.

coolzyg said:

Yeah, I can see where you are coming from. I was just more looking at it from the me as a player angle. When I play a new character, I expect I'll begin with some rudimentary gear, and not much for oomph. Then I do some stuff, get some XP under my belt, make a few friends, and start to get better stuff. The majority of the Guard don't ever get to that point; their stuff is handed out by the Munitorum, and with a few exceptions, they won't be getting improvements. It's a character growth angle that I will miss, depending on what I'd be playing. Granted, I favor Officers (despite a certain lack of tactical planning, if you talk to my D&D buddies) and Psykers, so my weapon/armor options might be better, with plasma pistols, carapace armor, power swords, refractor fields, and force weapons, but many of the "rank-and-file" soldiers might step up to heavy weapons, and that's as far as they go. If we get to play Vets, maybe I'll have just been nervous over nothing; here's hoping.

Warboss Krag said:

My Player's Greed will show, but I'm not trying to ramp up the Imperial Guard; I am trying to improve my lot in it as a PC. I don't want them to get better stuff, but to ensure that I can get better stuff, as I advance through the game. I am looking at the logistics of a man, or the PCs team; a special unit, perhaps, within the force. They shell out for bolt pistols so Commissars can waste explosive shells on Officers and Psykers, when a las-weapon might do just as well (and the only 3 Wound unit a Commissar can one-shot is mine; why can't he be that good a shot against enemy pieces? ), but short of upgrading to one weapon above the starting lasgun, be that a heavy bolter, a meltagun, or what have you, most IG never improve their kit; just their skill, or they die in another meatgrinder. In DH, you start woefully unprepared, even as a servant of the infinite-resources Inquisition, and as you play, you get better stuff. You start to figure out what the enemy is like, and spread some requests, and some money, to get stuff that makes an easier day out of it, up to and including holy relics, xenotech, and what have you. RT starts at a higher level, and gets some good stuff from day 1, AND they are given infinite money, with which to get even better gear, and on massive scales. They start with one of the most powerful options, a ship, and can easily pimp it up to fill any role, while staying in good kit. DW starts with the best guys getting most of the best level stuff. They practically don't need better gear, but they still get it. I don't want OW, a game I see as having some promise I don't as much see in some of these others, to be the one game where this angle falls away, where you don't so much matter, and the faceless Munitorum shrugs you off, expecting you to be dead in the morning, so why give you better stuff. If you are Veterans, and in good position to requisition some stuff, sort of like how Space Marines do it, AND if the better stuff is made available, on the scale of you and your team, I'll shut up, and be happy. If the game runs more like how I often see IG, then that might be a bit lacking. Part of it, I still blame on the lack of previews, with me not having a good idea how the game plans to conduct itself. Are you a grizzled Vet, standing out from the R&F, or a Whitesheild recruit, fresh off the bumpkin truck? Will we be a mismatched A-Team group (a unit with an Officer, a Psyker, a Commissar, an Ogryn, and a HW lugger would be a bit unusual), or will each player control a Squad, or maybe even a small Horde (better survivability rate)?

I'll simply repeat what an Iraqi war vet friend of mine said on the subject of non-standard issue kit: It depends on what you can acquire, and what your command will let you keep. For instance, back in '03, his squad, on a nightly weapons search, found an honest-to-God MG-freaking-42, straight out of WWII, with SS stamps!! And ammo!!! His XO - the other over-educated gun nut in the unit - put the kybosh on my buddy mounting the weapon on the company command Humvee; it went back to the Baumholder base museum instead. Same with the PPSH-43 that was found on a different night (with several full drum magazines!!). Now, the pistols, the AKs, and other stuff? Sure, there were lots of troops in his unit that had 'back-up' guns that they'd found (the Middle East is, apparantly, where old war guns go to continue soldiering) or bought. By and large, combat command don't give a ****; they've got other things to worry about. Buuuuut, ya stow those non-reg things when higher command comes poking about… ("Alles klar, eh Kommissar?")

I'm pretty sure the designers of the game are aware that players will eat them alive at the nearest convention if a game about Imperial Guard doesn't somehow let them shoot all the coolest guns in the system. I'm pretty sure they've long since figured out a way to do that without pissing off hardcore lore maniacs too much. Just like they did in DW with numerous problems that playing Space Marines raises.

That said, should the lasgun in OW look anything like the one in Black Crusade, it will really last you some time without causing the urge to swap it for the first different weapon you come across, even if it's an Ork Shoota rigged to fire ping-pongs. A BC lasgun can almost match a bolter for damage in a pinch, and allows for some wonderfully tactical usage.

venkelos said:

Also, making a bolter itself is not the only issue. Bolts themselves are complicated things. They are cased like a normal round. So far so good. But then the projectile has a miniature solid fuel rocket engine (or even several much smaller ones). Then there is the matter of the explosive filler, and then the mass reactive fuse. All in all a very complicated little piece of work for a single round for a small arm.

Also, the Imperium isn't really one monolithic unified empire. It is 1 million seperate planets, each divided amoung various "local" governments (Sectors and the like), which all owe fealty to the Imperium. Each region is responsibile for the upkeep of its own armed forces and its own defence (with external aid when it is regarded as necessary).

Oh, and Commissars are actually meant to be issued a las pistol for the duties… its just that all the miniatures happen to have bolt pistols (I don't remember what the army list says).

@Morangias

Yup, Overcharge and Overload modes in combination with Full Auto no longer being the be-all-end-all fire mode really made the humble lasgun shine again.

To everyone who hasn't got BC: The stats for normal fire are the regular ones. When fired in Overcharge mode, the lasgun adds one damage and chews up ammo 2:1. In Overload, it adds 2 damage and 2 penetration, gains Unreliable instead of Reliable and eats 4 shots per shot fired - but then again, it now deals D10+5 Pen2 damage and you can still fire 15 times before reloading.

borithan said:

In truth, I don't want to devote a whole planet to making one thing; I just find it strange that, with so many worlds, they still seem to run out of stuff. Only the Eldar seem to sit in the same boat, and they are a dying race. Tau build stuff that can make the Imperium's stuff look inferior to ours, and they NEVER have any problem. When you have 1 million worlds, and all the resources, manpower, and lack of morals the Imperium is known for, they should be able to mass-produce, and transport anything they might need. While they aren't the solid empire Palpatine rules, they are more than willing to make any planet do what they want, or blast it from orbit, so they shouldn't have any shortages. The "mystical" aspect of many of their weapons, also, seems to be a slowdown for their productivity. While I acknowledge that bolts and bolt guns are "sci-fi weapons", they are weapons that the Imperium has been making for 10 millennia, and they shouldn't have any problems with it.

For Commissars, in the newest TT Codex, both Commissars and Lord Commissars come with bolt pistols (p.92 and 96). L. Commissars CAN upgrade to plasma pistols, but whether that's better to them is questionable. To me, bolt pistols seem to be the iconic weapon of the Commissariat. My L.Comm. in my fanfic, Heinrich Gellerman, carries both weapons, and reserves the bolt pistol for a backup weapon, if the plasma pistol runs dry, or overheats beyond use, and to perform summary executions.

venkelos said:

The Tau and Eldar 'empires' are so relatively tiny that it's not a logistical problem. Seriously, the Tau are and always have been an example of a micro empire in the universe. Their worlds can be COUNTED! Their population given a reasonably accurate census. They know what all their worlds are, the Imperium is so vast it isn't even sure if some worlds are still there! You're comparing things that shouldn't even be compared here.

And again 'mass produce' requires the resources to do it. It's very likely there just plain isn't the resources to arm the Guard on an Astartes level even if it were possible. And they DO mass produce. They mass produce Lasguns, they mass produce tanks, starship components, the civil infrastructure of their worlds, the resources to keep the empire running. In other words they mass produce at the level they are capable of. The biggest 'bang' for the buck. Just as the Tau have been for their own situation.

Using them as an example comparison is a terrible one.

As for the Bolters being things they 'shouldn't' have problems with? Who says they DO have trouble - they don't have troubles. There are places that make them. they are just expensive. Mass Production isn't some magical thing that suddenly makes things cheaper to produce. Especially if the materials are expensive.

My point was an always was that they have things that are far more efficient 'bang for the buck' than bolters. Far more useful for the situations they are in. The Lasgun IS the best weapon for the majority of foes for so many reasons it's hard to quantify. When it cost more even with Mass Production to make a single boltgun shot than it does to make a lasgun… why waste the money on bolts? It's simple economics - Cost Benefit Anaylsis. There is simply NOT ENOUGH BENEFIT for the money to make it worth mass producing Bolters and Bolts more than they currently are. (Mainly by worlds supporting Astartes chapters - for whom there is enough benefit to arm their small forces). Bolters aren't worth spending the money and resources mass producing compared to Lasguns for frontline troopers whose life expectancy is 16 hours anyways.

Especially when the money, space, and time saved can be put towards far more effective things at killing. Like Tanks, artillery, flak armor, other vehicles, STARSHIPS (Which is one place the Imperium is on the cutting edge, relatively. Still some of the most effective ships in the galaxy)

The Imperium's biggest advantage is numbers. Arguably only the 'nids or Orks can match them in that. And the Orks don't have the unity. As one last hypothetical:

They use these numbers in their Cost Benefit Analysis. the simple truth is the Lasgun isn't that much worse than a Bolter at killing in general COMPARED TO THE COST. When you can arm ten times as many soldiers (which you HAVE access to) with Lasguns than you can bolters (and I wager that is really undervaluing the Bolter), you're going to kill more of your enemy and have more options than the smaller amount with bolters. Especially if the cost of the bolter makes it harder to afford things like grenades and vehicle support. In fact, I'd wager the CBA of the imperium has proven quite handily that for the guard the money to arm the guard as they are is the best 'bang' for the 'buck' - they have the option to do Bolters or Autoguns or whatever instead. But the simple CBA has chosen the current kit as the most effective killiness.

A bolter just isn't so much better that the cost is worth it. And again, has some genuine disadvantages too. Namely in durability and weight of ammo and weight in general.

Dulahan said:

I used the Tau because their stuff is so much more advanced, and no matter how complicated their stuff is, they never seem to be at a shortage. No matter where in the galaxy they need something, their little empire, with its barely warp-capable ships, can get the stuff there. It's not the best comparison, certainly, but the only ones on par with the Imperium, and even then not really, are Orks, whose garbage-tech cheats to work, and the Tyranids, who grow their own stuff.

I went with bolters because, apparently, they are good enough to arm the Space Marines with. As for cost, I mostly meant that, whatever they are made of, it shouldn't be too hard to find deposits of Unobtainium on a planet, and then press-gang the populace to get it out. Sorry, but for me, the scale with which the imperium is based, nothing short of its own inability to manage itself seems a viable answer for their lack of things. A lasgun is certainly more cost-effective, but my Player self doesn't want to be delegated to the uber-flashlight forever. Like I said, it's not that I think the Guard should have better; for their tactics, arraying, and such, it probably is the best weapon for them to have. I just don't want to play the game, and have to keep using it throughout, when other groups get better stuff, because, like the Tau, they are few in number. I still don't know what scale the game will use, whether we'll be a 4-6 member A-Team, like DH/DW, sent in to deal with covert problems, or whether we will be a few cogs within the machine of war, parts of a huge battleforce fighting against an equally massive force of Orks, Nids, or worse. If we are a smaller group, and our individual actions, hits, etc REALLY matter, then I, personally, want something bigger than a lasgun, and the assurance that, within fluff, it'll be available. I'll hope that, as the PCs, we will have a better life-expectancy then the average meat-grinder marine Guardsman.

Thanks, by the way, for having this spirited debate over the point; it's been rather fun, and for me, is a nice little blip of activity on a site waiting for that new book to come out, and not having much else to talk about, till then.

Yeah, we need something to talk about.

The point with Space Marines and Bolters is that they're elites. They're the sort of troop that comes in small numbers and that you WANT to have the most effective thing possible because they are the ones guaranteed to be up against the scariest stuff. Plus, frankly, they have the durability to get some use out of the bolter. And the skill to make sure it hits.

A good real world advantage of a similar situation that might even have stark contrasts:

The Longbow and Steppe Horseman's Bow in Real Life was superior to any firearm in terms of Rate of Fire, Range, penetration, and even accuracy (In most cases the latter, the rifles made by Napoleonic times had some advantages, but were so rare relatively they didn't quite work. Also, said rifles were super slow). So much superior that even Ben Franklin, looking at it from the simple terms of a man of science thought the Colonial Militia and Armies of the American Revolution should be u sing Longbows instead of rifles! Indeed, I'd wager the English Armies of Crecy or Agincourt would probably even have been able to defeat similarly sized Napoleonic armies (so long as morale held in face of artillery!). Anyways, the problem? Cost. Not so much financial in this case, but time. See, to use a bow effectively requires years of training. It's why the English were one of the only armies in Medieval Times using them, because they had mandatory militia training.

It's also why the steppe peoples held out so long against the armies of China, Russia, and other bordering groups. They always had the tradition to keep using their bows and these were just a stupidly good advantage.

The Napoleonic thing is another good example. Rifle vs Musket of the time. Rifles had greater range, accuracy, penetration… though in this case MUCH slower rate of fire and more expensive. So didn't work well for Line Infantry. Though some armies found good ways to use them for harassing. But never for the Line of Battle proper.

The Tau though… they… manage. And they sorta cheat too. I also have a feeling that as they grow more advanced they will probably hit that point where suddenly their AIs rebel, their suits aren't worth the cost anymore. Because that's how the universe works. Because really, it is a scale thing. The super suits and weapons work great while they still have the mineral rich worlds and the small armies to deal with it (Also remember, the Imperium could wipe them out in a heartbeat if it really turned its attentions to it, but the 'nids have most of the focus on that front, so it hasn't happened. Saves them from having to defend the Tau worlds. )

And the Eldar… well, they cheat with "Sufficiently Advanced Science… er… Magic" style stuff. Growing everything in one case. I admit I don't have a clue how the Dark Eldar do things.

Another way we can twist the argument is this:

Lascannons/Heavy Bolters/Autocannons/etc etc are WAY more effective than Lasguns/Bolters. Why not just arm every infantryman with those! Instead of just small support roles in squads. The Bolter thing is a rather similar argument. As again, against most foes…

And finally, I also agree, we still have zero clue how this is going to play out. We don't even know if we're all PCs from the same regiment! (Though the teaser for the FRPG day thing makes it seem a bit more likely… and the leaks of what characters there are implies a Dark HEresy or worse 'rank 1' ability, so likely not an elite unit of forces from multiple groups). But how will taking part in battles work. Advancement. All that stuff.

Though I should bring up that Hellguns are considered nearly as powerful as Bolters… And well within the purview of elite regiments.

venkelos said:

Sticking my head in at the tail end of a debate, I know, but here goes

Check out some of the books on the guard, and the guards life. As everyone will suggest, try the Gaunt's Ghost series. Abnett goes through the trouble of building out detailed and rich characters over the course of his series'. For the most part, the team uses lasguns, and the stories don't get old because of it. Some characters get special weapons- boltguns, heavy pistols, cannons, flamers, sniper rifles, etc.

If we're talking about an RPG though, isn't that the true core of the RPG anyhow, the character? Sure, getting cool loot is ingrained in us players, and we all want better stuff and to be rewarded as we advance, but the background I've read on the guard makes all of that fairly easy to do and attainable. Without knowing what they wrote, you can bet it operates on a similar advancment system to their other games, and as you get higher you'll get better abilities and access to better weapons. Maybe you get to be the regiment/squad that is super effecitve, and the fact that all the squad members bought plasma guns from the giant supply train and black marketeers that follow guard units is overlooked because the team manages to slay the enemies of mankind better because of it.

And the thing that makes me most excited about this game is that it is about the little guy, the one that no one has faith in, that's a grunt to be stepped on. But you get to prove them wrong, the underdog story. You kill xenos despite the fact that all you have is a lasgun and some friends.

@venkelos

I think the point you're missing is that the Imperium isn't just big in its capability of gathering ressources, it's big in its need for defence too. Yes, you could easily raise a hundred regiments clad in power armour and wielding boltguns. You just need to devote the industrial power of, say, a few dozen planets to do that. Now how are those 3 million guys going to defend those planets? After all, present-day Earth alone has more than ten times this number (counting reservists). So what they actually do is mostly skip the Power Armour and boltguns in favour of materiel that can really be mass -produced for the trillions of guardsmen you need to equip across the galaxy - and that's the stuff that is cheap to produce, that can take a beating and that requires as little logistics as possible. Cue the lasgun.

If the Imperium was ever able to concentrate its power on one point and ignore everything else, it could smash any foe - and then be torn to pieces by everyone else over the borders they just left undefended. The Tau may be rather low-tech in their warp science, but their supply chains are a lot shorter because their "Empire" is minuscule in comparison to the Imperium of Man.