Well, I can imagine there being sort of 'slots' on the inside surface of the fused ribcage to accomodate the intercostal muscles, so it sort of forms a shell over them. With the cartilage connected to the sternum remaining free, you would then still have that flexibility, I think.

And Gantz meant Page 19, in case anyone is wondering.

Captain Ventris said:

This is very true.

In fact, to my knowledge there is no reference of "fused rib cage" in any reference from 3rd edition onward. I don't own 1st or 2nd books so I can't look into them. On the contrary, the 3rd ed. space marine book or the rulebook there is no mention of "fused" ribcages, or much information concerning the implantation process for that matter.

The Index Astartes goes into significant detail over the process. But again, no reference to "fused" ribcage. Rather, the index states under phase 2 - ossmodula, "Two years following implantation, this will have caused considerable strengthening of the long-bones, extreme ossification of the chest cavity (caused by growth of the ribs forming a solid mass of inter-laced bone plates ) and a general increase in the size of the recipient's skeleton." Emphasis mine.

This proves two things.

First, the ribs grow but instead of fusing together as many believe they form large plates which layer upon each other forming a shell over the upper body cavity. But they do not fuse together. Where this idea came from I don't know. I postulate it is just fan speculation or information contamination (in the same manner as a rumour changes form the more times it is recounted). It would be nice to have an actual quotation to a verifiable source for the "fused" ribcage quote, if one exists at all.

Second, the entire skeleton grows. This growth grows every bone in the body to some degree, including the skull, hands, feet, pelvis, etc. A space marines proportions would be different than that of a normal human. This is how a space marine can pack on a massive amount of muscles and not be muscle-bound. The longer bones allow more muscle mass attached to the bones and provides more room for the muscle to flex.

Oh, wow, you're right. The Deathwatch Corebook uses the exact same phrasing in the section about the process of becoming a Space Marine. Totally missed the qualifiers in that description. The ribs fuse, yes - into plates. Got it. All makes sense now.

Captain Ventris said:

Thats just Some Dude!

Quite apart from being a bit dull he wouldn't even fill out the Armour!

--

Incidentally, here we see a Marine engaging an Eldar seer in hand to hand combat:-

ItsUncertainWho said:

Flexible materials can still be exceptionally tough to cut through. I think that the idea of a rigidly inflexible 'candy coating' just under the skin is fairly silly.

HappyDaze said:

It is called the Black Carapace, not the Black Flexible Sub-dermal Neurobundle Armor Interconnectivity System.

The purpose of the Black Carapace is to maximize usefulness of the marines power armour not to act as armour. Its an interface between marines nervous system and his power armour. Black Carapace can be fibrous and resilient to hold the connection ports and neural links in place and safe but if it is rigid and inflexible wouldn't the marine just break the "carapace" by moving and flexing his muscles.

Just a tought about what a SM look like. I guess some of you are familiar with the WWE just look at wrestler like Brok Lesnar, Kane, Undertaker, HHH, or re scale of Rey Mysterio (making him 7'), the former Batista or Big Dady D.

All of them could be taken to represent what SM look like. Maybe they are no as broad as theyn should be but they are tall enough.

My problem is that they are just dudes, not mighty posthuman supersoldiers of the dark future.

Plus, in 40k regular dudes can look like this:-

So I think you need to do something so people can really see that Marines are huge and powerful in ways beyond what is possible in a unenhanced human.

AluminiumWolf said:

Personally I prefer a less deformed marine.

borithan said:

This sounds good to me. I'd rather have the whole thing look awesome than be deformed to allow for 'realistic' power armour.

Oh yeah, flipping through RoB. guy in scout armour on page 142 strip off big shoulder pads and chast plate, there you go. I know, not the best pic, but it's in the books, and looks like it's built on the same frame as the PA and Termie pics from the books people are trying to trace the guy into. More squat of build than I would go for and certainly not as inhumanly deformed as A-Wolf likes but, like most things, lands somewhere in the middle.

AluminiumWolf said:

Catachans aren't exactly what I'd call "regular", as they're a walking 80's action movie pun.

Morangias said:

"Get on ze choppa!"

Adeptus-B said:

*get to da choppa. To, not on. Baaaaaaw

Morangias said:

Yeah, but that is what dudes in Warhammer look like.

When you have entire armies of Johns Rambo and Matrix wondering about, a genetically modified posthuman supersoldier has to do something special to stand out.

Like I say, I think you need to really sell at first glance that Marines are massive and powerful. It should be instantly obvious that you are not just looking at a big dude. This is something more than that.

Course, it is entirely possible that I just imprinted on He Man at a young age…

Firstly: most games workshop miniatures are exaggerated. Just because the humans are over sized compared to the Space Marine miniatures doesn't mean that is how humans are "really" meant to look like in Imperium. Some of it is due to the limitations of plastic (particularly with the much older Catachan plastic models). Back in 2nd ed with the metal Imperial Guard the models appeared less exaggerated (though they were still in the "heroic" style, and Catachans still had rediculous muscles).

Secondly: Catachans are meant to be unusually big and muscled, and are particularly influenced by cinematic characters reknowned for their rediculous, unecessary muscleature. They are useless as an example of what a "regular" guy can look like, especially when you choose a particularly outlandish representatives of even that small community (Gunnery Sergeant Harker).

If the miniatures were all done in "true" scale it would be easy to tell a Space Marine from "regular" guys.

borithan said:

Hi guys, long time no debate

borithan is 100% correct here, Catachans are often referred to as "Baby Ogryns" due to their ridiculous size. Take a look at the Vostroyans, the Cadians, the old Tallarn Raiders (or whatever they were called) and you'll see humans that look definitively less muscled than the Catachans and of smaller size than a Space Marine.

And why does he have to stand out from the average 'big dude'? There are examples in the fiction, even in DW itself, of 'regular' humans being the size of Astartes, just without the unnatural characteristics. Marines have implants, plugs, and demeanor that will set them apart from most of the regular folks.

Not to mention the concept of Genestock, first introduced in the HH novel Legion. They were described as being huge - implied to be as large or larger than the astartes also present. I've personally used (in a RT game) an Alpha Legionary with the cover of "Genestock Crime Lord" and even the 40k fanatics in the game were hapy to accept the sheer physical size of the guy.

Also - being as spoiler free as possible - anyone who has seen Prometheus… you know what I'm talking about, unarmoured Marine-wise.

I hear you! I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw Prometheus today. Those dudes were ripped!

professor_kylan said:

According to the info I found, they stand around eight feet tall. So big marine/Primarch territory.

Look up Hong Man Choi, K1 and MMA fighter, he's a pretty athleticly proportioned human around the size of an unarmored space marine.

Now think about him with about… 100lbs more muscle mass.

I think some humans could be height wise the same as a marine, but an astartes is just going to be… thicker. For lack of a better term.

borithan said:

Well exactly, so Marines need to be even more exaggerated so you can tell the difference.

And you can undersell it - this Birth of a Spartan trailer for Halo Reach:-

doesn't sell the Human/Spartan transformation enough, so you can't tell if anything has happened.

So in the warhammer world of larger than life characters, you need to look at a Marine and say, yes, that dude is totally a genetically engineered feared supersoldier feared throughout the galaxy.

When regular dudes are already in to 'typical comic book guy' below, Marines need to be 'ultra-musclemen' to show they are special.

And I really like ultra-musclemen. :-)

Need to tone done the 'roids abit, Here's a picture of a Space Wolf scout in light scouting armor to give a better perspective. Sure space marine scouts are normally newbs, but Wolf Scouts are veteran members.