Look at those muscles!

It's not far off from what I picture.

If the hands and feet were proportional, and the upper arm was slightly longer, so the elbow fell properly, I could get behind it more.

To nit pick, the torso would need to be devoid of muscle definition due to the black carapace.

That's more what I picture for the Ogryn. I always thought of Space Marines as more olympian ideal, human plus, and well proportioned, as opposed to deformed looking. More like your 'standard' muscled super hero than the Hulk.

I dunno. I like Marines as big ugly hulking slabs of veiny meat. The Imperium, surely, doesn't make anything that is pretty.

Plus obviously I have always had big muscles. I though Arnie in Conan the Barbarian was the coolest thing in the world. I think he left a big impression on me.

Oh, and the torso muscles are important to me, so I feel certain that the Black Carapace is kinda… moulded and segmented to show them off rather than hide them.

I always pictured Astartes as a cross between the two ideals mentioned, with a healthy dose of Uncanny Valley thrown in for good measure. Slightly too tall, limbs not quite proportioned correctly. The extra bone growth meaning the face is a little too long. Slightly too many muscles and none in exactly the right place. Less distorted than the OP, but that's because I can imagine astartes begin able to do things like scratch their own backs, or be able to, you know, move

A number of the Black Library Astartes characters are described as handsome, or a near analogy, by mortal characters. I don't think anyone would be entirely willing to call the guy in the OP, or someone of those proportions, a looker!

professor_kylan said:

Oh I don't know. It is probably an extreme example of Men Are Stong, Women Are Pretty (and may appeal more to men than to women), but it has a certain charm.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenAreStrongWomenArePretty

It was more listed as a handsomeness in spite of the transhuman physique. Talos from the Night Lord books, Loken from the Horus Heresy books or… uh… that guy from Brothers of the Snake. Okay, so my memory is letting me down here, name wise, but the three of them have female POV characters mention that they're handsome in spite of being effectively made out of knuckles, muscles and hate. Again, you COULD use that as an argument either way, but I think it still suggests they're closer to human than otherwise.

That being said - that just means I run it differently than you. If it works for you and your players, knock yourself out

ItsUncertainWho said:

The carapace is subcutaneous across most of their body. Doesn't mean they lack muscle definition.

They have to fit inside the power armour. Look at the arms before you add the shoulder pads and you can tell they're not like that at all. but I've just spent my evening putting some minis together so I'm thinking along those lines right now. look at any model that's got his arm up (without a power fist on the end of it) and you can see a fairly normaly proportioned arm under there.

This is quite a good example.

http://img600.imageshack.us/i/marinesize750.jpg

Kshatriya said:

The Black Carapace is implanted under the skin, not under the muscle. You basically have a rigid plastic sheet between the skin and muscle that would remove he muscle definition. It was mentioned in one of the HH books, how odd a Space Marine looked out of armor, their chest smooth from lack of muscle definition due to the black carapace.

I envision it looking more like a light body armor under a thin skin tone shirt, then add in the interface points for the armor.

They have to fit inside the power armour. Look at the arms before you add the shoulder pads and you can tell they're not like that at all. but I've just spent my evening putting some minis together so I'm thinking along those lines right now. look at any model that's got his arm up (without a power fist on the end of it) and you can see a fairly normaly proportioned arm under there.

Lets not get into how poorly GW sculpts are at Accurately depicting anatomy or scale.

Well, I am not giving up my muscles, so I suggest finding a look for the carapace that serves to emphasise rather than conceal the beautiful man-flesh.

This illuminates a few things. Astartes seem to be a balance between all that we've discussed

Here, from Horus Rising:

"She sighed inwardly at the splendour of his physique. The knotted muscles, the old ridge-scars. He was handsome, too, this one, fair hair almost silver, cut short, his pale skin slightly freckled, his eyes grey like rain. What a waste, she thought.

Though there was no disguising his inhumanity, especially in this bared form. Apart from the sheer mass of him, there was the overgrown gigantism to the face, that particular characteristic of the Astartes, almost equine, plus the hard, taut shell of his rib-less torso, like stretched canvas."

So he's obviously cut, he's simply rib-less due to Astartes ribs being fused and all. I think, therefore, that the Black Carapace does indeed follow the lines of the muscles, because that would definitely be mentioned in particular if Loken had no definable pectoral muscles or something. So it grows along the surface of the muscles, not as a flat form over them.

So yes, there is a certain uncanny-valleyness to them, but they are still Olympian in build, and those with the proper face can even be considered handsome. The facial structure changes of gigantism are a hallmark, and you know it when you see it, but it's not like those with gigantism irl look inhuman.

The rib cage is going to be mostly concealed by a Marines enormous biomechanical pecs and abs anyway…

ItsUncertainWho said:

Just to point out, the Black Carapace hardens after implantation, but that doesn't mean it becomes rigid. It's an advanced bio-plastic, and there's no reason it can't be both hard and still retain flexibility like some of those plastic packages that are a total ***** to open without something sharp.

I always thought space marines were more a massive paragon of athleticism than a body builder. Body builders look good, and the image has infected popular culture however pound for pound they're not that strong. Look more to you sprinters, rugby players, and cage fighters. Highly athletic brick shithouses every one of them and strong as hell, but not body builders.

Sorry to disagree A Wolf, that image at the top would have trouble tying it's shoelaces, let alone pull off the sort of feats I expect from space marines.

I do like that cyber-ninja though. It's looks like it could both really move AND rip your arms off.

AluminiumWolf said:

I think the quote about the ribs is about how the skin has stretched (stretch marks? possibly, even probable) over the ribs due to their growth.

herichimo said:

Or the fact that Space Marine ribs fuse together in the transformation process.

Also if the black carapace was inflexible the Space Marine would have trouble moving, such as twisting at the waist. The body was meant to only have bones as rigid.

Zakalwe said:

Oh, I accept that it is a fantasy, but it should be clear by now it is a fantasy I really like. And I don't think I am the only one. The Arnie Barbarian left a lasting impression, not least on Games Workshop:-

And others:-

And they are just Some Dude, not a mighty Space Marine enhanced by the greatest science known to the Imperium of Mankind!

Plus a Marine can be designed from the ground up to carry and utilise great slabs of vat grown hypermuscle, so it can be perfectly possible.

I agree here. A normal human couldn't be so bulky and still flex, but a Space Marine's proportions ARE slightly different, likely to accommodate this. They are built from the ground up to punch in skulls. Arnie actually did lose some mass to play Conan in order to be flexible enough, but when you're seven foot tall and genetically restructured, I can imagine it working out, what with the extra space and all.

They aren't lithe, necessarily, but they can twist pretty well, and their sheer strength gives them the speed to adjust and move quicker than a normal man without spraining anything. With only an incredibly strong wrist, you can do fancy sword work. Back that up with a beast of an arm (which, again, was made for this), and that blade could move lightning fast. So yes, they're improbably muscled - for a mortal! I mean, their skeleton itself changes shape and size. Their muscles have the room to move, while still rendering them the physical trans-human neo-greco-roman warrior ideal they are presented as.

I will keep Tom of Finland imagery out of my games thank you very much. My marines are big, hugely muscled but within the bounds of reason (their physiology isn't that radically changed) and not specimens of Adonis. No ribs, as noted. Being good-looking (which here actually means conforming to the aesthetic standards of early 21st-century Britain BTW) is not high on the list of characteristics that a supersoldier should have.

I can't help but think that a fully fused ribcage is going to be a detriment. The intercostal muscles and the flexibility of the ribcage being important for deep breathing during periods of high demand. It also contributes to the familiar 'rise and fall' of the chest seen during breathing. Are Astartes attributed with having chest movement from breathing in the novels?

bogi_khaosa said:

But why else do we call them super soldiers, sweetie?

HappyDaze said:

The Black Carapace hardens enough that Apothecaries need to use a small chainsaw to be able to cut through it to recover the gene seed.

I picture space marines less as the idealized athletic form and more along the lines of heavyweight power lifters or NFL Linemen that can move like flyweight MMA fighters.

for me…..

look at page 20 of the core rulebook…this is enough for a space marine