trane said:

That said, I have two bones to pick with just this part of your post:

1. Order+Good is fantastic. Is it better than O+Water or O+Chaos, dunno, but it's not a 4 > 3 kind of comparison.
2. All the posts you quoted spoke about how that (except handsize) part is enough of an advantage to negate his disadvantages in a comparison with other contenders.

Aaaanyway, on the topic of Gill's HS advantage, there is one big flaw in the Hanzo vs 7HS evil comparison: Evil, generally, had (has) nothing of the same calibur draw tech that Order does. I have never witnessed a high-tension evil-vs-evil matchup, so my perceptions may be irrelevant, but only BRT {already a magnet for negation/countering}, Gorgeous Team, and some very janky stuff like Demon Eyes was available. Order has Bigger they Are and Aquakinesis -- both effectively, "Play this card: +1/+2 HS for the rest of the game" -- as well as some enhance-based stuff (Familiar Loyalty, Son of a Tycoon, Kabuki Artist), AND BRT. Gen can very easily make up the difference; he digs through his deck in his draw step AND by making control checks, and he just needs a Mega Spike to fetch an Aquakinesis or BTA. And once he draws one, then at the very least it's a distraction from the Program Malfunction or BRT.

Wafflecopter said:

are we talking about gill or gen. i think gen is quite a solid char so you don't have to defend him to me. all i am trying to say about gill is that i think it's about what a character can do not if they have 8hs or 7hs. kyoshiro, donovan, and gen are much better than gill even if they have less 1 less hand size

maybe, but gill will win a lot more games purely on the strength of his 8hs.

handsize is a proven winner

What is it you think Kyoshiro DOES, exactly?

Quite literally, once per game, gain +5 HS for one turn.

His other ability is pretty useless for the most part. Once you use his ability, Kyoshiro becomes a worse version of Gill, albeit with better symbols.

MegaGeese said:

exactly. gill uses order. donovan and kyoshiro have order. gill has 8hs. donovan and kyoshiro have 7hs. gill has a usselese ability. donovan has great abilities, and kyoshiro has a once a game 12hs. gill has no good symbols (pun intended) other than order. donovan has 1 other good symbol, and kyoshiro has 2. order has better options than gill. i feel the only place he will realy shine is as a diversity breaker.

You're joking, right? Order/Good and ESPECIALLY Order/Death are very solid together.

Donovan will always be better than Gill, but it's for the same reason he will always be better than Kyoshiro - he has two useful, reuseable abilities.

Kyoshiro v. Gill is a question of better symbols vs. larger handsize. That's all. Personal taste will determine which works out better.

Ed: Gill can abuse Ira-Spinta better, while Kyoshiro can draw into Defender sooner. Kyoshiro is obviously a combo character. Gill is pure control.

Kyoshiro has a GREAT ability, until he gets tag alonged. If I'm not mistaken, if tag alonged you cant use his ability for the rest of the game because of the ONLY PLAYABLE bit. I personally wouldnt risk playing him on that. However, his great synergy with The bigger they are... can supply the card draw that he needs.

Makingsenseofus said:

If he says only playable then ya tag along blows might be a reason why donovan is better in my opinion .

Makingsenseofus said:

i have completely changed my opinion of kyoshiro. donovan is definately better.