They said that there are twelve and have given a bit more than half of them, or pretty much their representations (from their first postings of the game):

1 Commissar

2 Heavy Gunner

3 Medic

4 Ministorum Priest

5 Sanctioned Psyker

6 Sergeant

7 Storm Trooper

8 Tech-priest Enginseer

+4 more.

So, what else could be in that book? I think definitely there will be an assault based class, probably a sniper, but what about the last two? Regular trooper? Scout? What do you guys think?

I'm sure a lot of people are dying to play a Commissar, but me? I'm excited to play a Sergeant or Storm trooper!

Sanctioned Psyker, with his required minders with boltpistols (just in case), for me

Enginseers for me, anyday, everyday.

Anyway, perhaps some kind of voxcaster? They could be used to mobilise other forces (for tactical strikes, deploying vehicles, etc.) and be armed with something like a laspistol / boltpistol.

There's a couple other threads on this too.

Some think Ogryns. I HOPE that isn't the case. But it's possible, and one is on the art they previewed of the Free RPGday stuff.

Some sort of "Stealth" sort seems likely. Whether it is Recon or Sniper or whatever, it does make sense given the fluff.

Possibly some sort of Commissioned Officer, since Sergeant is an NCO. My biggest worry of all is this will be as rigidly hammered into 'classes' as Dark Heresy, and "sergeant" magically goes from NCO to CO just by 'leveling up' - that's stupid and unrealistic, most NCOs will remain such, and are just as important, if not more so, to the military as senior NCOs as the COs are. This is just as, if not more true, in the 40k world where often officers are a completely different breed. Though NCOs hopefully can advance to CO in the right circumstances, I just hope there is still an option to start out as a CO.

Possibly some sort of Vehicle based career, a driver or whatever.

The Russian said:

An Assault-based class might be nice, but Guard seem to lack it, except for Ogryns, so I don't know. If they could make up a Guard type, one that actually CAN assault, even if it doesn't exist in their army list, I'd be pleased. I would like to see Ogryn, but maybe just as an NPC asset, for now, and maybe give them stuff for Character Use later. I suppose they wouldn't be too hard to make/run, but… A Recon/Sniper/Advance Scout/Artillery Spotter-type would be a nice option, so long as that character isn't always alone, off on their own; it will sort of matter, for me, how the group mechanic works in the game, whether you might have a player Officer, Commissar, Sniper, Ogryn, and Tech-Priest all in the same unit (odd for Guardsmen, but doable for an RPG), or whether you will each control assets in a bigger force (and the "army unit" is the "team"), where your specialties might apply more.

As for me, I'd like to either play a S. Psyker, or more likely, an Officer, maybe a Lieutenant. I'd guess that'll start as a Sergeant, and work the way up. I seem to attract the leadership role among my friends' gaming groups, even if I still wonder what ever led them to think I should lead. I like Psykers, but they always throw up flags because they have Powers, and some mechanic always makes them broken sauce, or sucky, but Officer should be a nice, stable class option, and one with good options.

Regardless of the feelings players, and the books, will have on vehicles, I assume a dedicated Driver/Pilot character type will get released. I'd think, in their own way, they'd need as much dedicated training, compared to a "regular" Guardsman, as any Heavy Weapons Operator.

Pilot. Don't forget, even though the Navy technically is in charge of air and space craft, the Guard makes heavy use of aircraft. I imagine these interface pilots would consider themselves a service on their own, sort of like the USMC considers themselves separate from the Navy.

I concur about the NCO business. The good NCOs remain NCOs, and are completely essential.

I am sorry that FFG is once again using what amounts to a D&D static leveling system, where characters are trapped and trammeled into an often illogical series of skill and talent opportunities (anyone else notice that the Arbitrator gains practically no advances in Awareness? A cop, without Awareness?), without even the opportunity to cross-level, like D&D went to decades ago. I was hoping for something more fluid, like the choice system in Black Crusade.

(Just an addendum to my previous post:)

There's an additional reason to resent the 'tied to one path' mechanic of the normal 40K RPG level system (other than just disappointment with the static and restrictive nature of it in general), and it's a reason specific to the 'you're in the army now' business that seems to be addressed by Only War: Military life is anything but static! It's not only traditional, it's completely normal for a soldier to change MOS several times over the course of a military career. Not so much officers; they're their own specialty (although, officers can change MOS as well, according to new training and military necessity), but deifnitely enlisted men.

Take a buddy of mine, for example. He joined the Army in 2002, as a grunt infantry. They shipped him to Iraq, where he swiftly became radioman for his company command squad (saved him from being wounded. In a firefight, a bullet hit him in the back. The radio took the hit; the only thing he felt was a thump! and the water leaking out of his punctured camel-pack). In short order, he moved to vehicle gunner for the captain's Humvee (all the whle serving as de facto company 'strange guns' specialist, because apparently the middle east is where old - sometimes quite old - firearms go to continue soldiering on). Then he moved to Bradley driver/mechanic, and he finished up his 28 months in Iraq as Bradley gunner. By the restrictive level terms of the typical FFG game, he bounced through at least two, and possibly three, different specialty levels.

I don't know, maybe they can put in some sort of cross-training/level jumping option to allow characters to skip between different specialties, like alternate career ranks do.

Agreed with the NCO business.

Warboss Krag said:

Yeah I can see that, I'll be joining up soon (frak this for coming out NOW ahahaha), as infantry. Who knows, maybe they [FFG] will surprise us, but even then there are elite advances…

The Russian said:

Elite advances are a mess. If you ask me. A further, well, bandage for a gaping wound. They're a nice tool but definitely add to the bloat and seriously… Black Crusade's approach is the best. Specialty as 'starting point' and let things go from there.

I mean, I'm worried. But things have been slowly improving. So I still have some hope they'll go the right direction.

If they do stick to the standard level method that has served them so long, one might hope that they incorporate several (or more than several) Alternate Career options, so you can pick up a few flavors of specialty. One thing with Only War, over say Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader, is that every character is a soldier. You don't have the wussy, book smart Sage, or such; every character is a Guardsman, hardened, trained, and weapon-capable; they just might have a few options between them, where one patches wounds, while the other specializes in demolitions. I would, overall, be happy with a base class (Guardsman, sort of like the base class for Space Marines), and numerous Alt Career paths, but I don't think that's their plan. Still, Alt Careers could help immensely.

Elite Advances can work, some of the time, but I prefer the idea of Alternate Career options, where I get some access to numerous Skills and Talents, and I think that, as the system is set, it works well. Of course, they could use more of the free for all Black Crusade uses; I don't know. I just wish that this **** book would come out, so all of these many questions could finally get answered.

venkelos said:

I disagree. Their issue is they rely on the GM approving something not explicitly in the book. I've had many otherwise great GMs who wouldn't approve things like that, it didn't make them terrible GMs, but it did leave me feeling hampered in terms of my PCs. Much rather have explicitly spelled out 'by the book' options instead of 'if GM approves, allow player to pay whatever for this talent' sort of things. Too much distrust "But… that might break the game" sort of feelings. I'd even hesitate to award them most of the time for a similar reason.

Sadly, what would work best would be a sort of structured approach to Black Crusade's chaos (pun intended), giving a set of basic level templates and allowing players to pay more sooner for various upgrades, if they wish. That way it has the feel of military structure - which is going to be a large part of the role-play experience; you do get to play with big toys, but they're not yours, and someone else has the keys, basically - while allowing the oft-times chaotic change that happens to people in military service, and particularly in time of active fighting.

I suppose that Elite Advances are NOT the way to fix it, for reasons explained and obvious. I will say that if appropriate they can spice up something if it was earned legitimately in character, and then I make them expensive as a GM. I make the ELITE stand out in them…but enough about that.

I figure that the loose but guided path might be the best way, I guess like multi-classing (as has been suggested earlier). Maybe even treat it sort of like an advanced specialty, i.e. you are a guardsman rank whatever, in order to get heavy gunner or sergeant or whatever ranks pay x XP and start at Medic Rank 1.

Also, Advanced Specialties in a limited sense and back-ground packages for the whole-squad to buy while each individual could buy deeds and distinctions?

Elite Advances are things I've used to reward players for creative thinking or for reoccurring situations that become 'part of' the character. So far none of them have involved any rules in the rulebook. The Arbite in our group has a Talent called "Trick Shot", that allows him to re-roll the scatter direction for his compact Grenade launcher. He has it because he kept rolling scatter in a way that allowed him to still hurt his target, or kept bouncing grenades off of walls back into his intended target whenever he missed. Eventually I offered him the Re-Roll as it just seemed to fit.

The Guardsman in my group has another on-existent Talent called "Jury Rig", where he modifies his own Frag Grenades to make 'em more dangerous. He earned that through role-play and roll-play, and it's worked out very well. His Frag Grenades aren't that much more dangerous than before - just a little more Pen - but it fits his character really well.

So that's what I like using Elite Advances for - to enhance what's already there or as a reward for something interesting. It's worked well so far.



As an aside, it's somewhat amusing and worrying to watch the collective conclusion leaping that we're seeing here - especially you Warboss Krag. How can you say "I am sorry that FFG is once again using what amounts to a D&D static leveling system" when you don't actually know what system they are using?

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

H.B.M.C., you've been around long enough to know how the internet works.

You assume that a company is out to get you personally and that everything they do is going to be exactly what you don't want. Then you indignantly rant about it for six months until the product is released. Once it's released you never mention anything you've said again, as if you never said it, while happily consuming your new product. Then you start complaining about "Why don't they (the company) ever talk to us?"

Yeah. Doom and Gloom is de rigeur until we actually know more. The lack of previews has been maddening! And likely as soon as we get another one we'll have a big discussion over what we will know. As it stands, the names of specialties and that they exist is basically what we know. But as HBMC said we don't know how it will look… of course that makes the difference that it's why we discuss it.

Hmm. In a perfect world, the employees of the producing company would be perusing posts, looking for good ideas and cogent discussions that could be used in the upcoming product. Yes, it would be a lot of work, but the benefit would be tapping the ideas, freely given, of a lot of players.

But, as has been said before, this is the internet, and there seem to be a lot of people who think it works very differently than being a useful feedback tool.

Warboss Krag said:

There's also the fact that the book is probably close to being printed already. Most likely in final playtesting and editing/layout. Especially to have the books by Gen Con. So it wouldn't matter if they liked our ideas if it wasn't close to the existing reality already.

Honestly, I liked Deathwatch a lot (my favorite game) and was well pleased with its leveling system. Dark Heresey was pretty good too, as was Rogue Trader. Haven't played Black Crusade so I can't comment there. And theories/hopes/ideas aside, I will likely buy Only War as well, I like all from the 40KRP line that I have played and will probably like it as well.

Discussion/theorizing is one thing, whining is another, lol. I think FFG does a good job overall with their product in the most important way (for me at least which is immersion and fun).

I belong to the school of gaming thought that prizes custom character design over level-based systems. Level systems are a serious archaism, left over from original D&D; they are designed to make character design and development easy for people who are uncomfortable plotting out character design and development. This is a surprising amount of people, who have real problems making decisions, particularly those that require that you know something of the rules of the game before being able to make an informed decision. It seems like a lot of work for them.

Me, I prefer to be able to make choices to develop a character the way I would like to. This allows me more control, and in the case of the RPG line we're discussing, allows me to avoid crap levels - there are levels in all of the games (except Black Crusade) where there's often no skills or talents I want to buy, and the only good reason to spend XP is raising stats. My players have trouble with this. In addition, there are some very odd skill choices we found just playing Dark Heresy for the first campaign - why is Awareness practically forbidden to Arbitrators, with said upgrades are given to every other class at much lower level?

I personally was happy to see the 'choose your own path' in Black Crusade. To view these forums, it seems I was in the minority.

Warboss Krag said:

Crying shame, that. Such things are easy to avoid by a disclaimer at the Home page or some such, having people sign away their claims to any material put on the site. A little legal boiler-plate goes a long way.

Refusing to even admit that the player base might be right smacks of two attitudes: 1) A lazy lawyer whose single response to almost any question is "Nope, can't do it, we might be sued," and/or 2) "How dare those upstart players act like our work is anything but perfect!!!" (The Games Workshop attitude.)

It's not about refusing to admit that the "player base might be right". Stop treating this as an adversarial 'us vs them' thing - it isn't. It is often done simply to avoid the spectre of plagiarism ever coming up. It's not a quagmire that any company wants to get involved in.

BYE

Interesting. Back in 1992, I believe, I put together the 'Uncle Al's Auto Stop and Gunnery Shop' compilation for Car Wars. We solicited player input and a lot of the gadgets (it was a gadget book) came from players. Now, I don't know if you know anything about Steve Jackson, and I can tell you a lot, but if there's one person who's going to be careful about his legalities, it was Evil Stevie. Not that I blame him; having the Secret Service - no kidding; look it up! - raid his offices in connection with the production of GURPS Cyberpunk (because there was a tenuous connection with a person said to belong to a hacking community), made him cross his t's and dot his i's. We never had any problem with a 'quagmire,' as you put it.

You want to check it? My actual name is Craig Sheeley. And I'm honestly surprised how many addresses on the internet list me as having games I wrote still being for sale…

and yet another thread has been derailed by bitching and moaning, so in an atempt to get things back on track id like to see a sniper specialist. Also to all those who say its easy to change specialties in military i will tell you that is bull, i am currently serving in uk forces and i can get promoted and be a supervisor for my job or go commision and become an officer my role is a weapons technicin in the RAF