Hello all!

I thought it was time to share the Minotaurs Rules I've cooked up in my spare GM time over the past month.

You can find them here on Google Docs:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_bfV8YzZsZwWVR2SFNQeWt5QXc

(Sorry for the imperfect quality, both MS word and Docs like to fight with PDF files)

A player of mine had wanted to create a Minotaurs character a little while back and wanted to do so by making a sort of off-brand assault marine. I liked his ideas but I thought they could use a full chapter write-up, so I decided to create one for him instead. I had a lot of fun doing it, but it's far from complete. I'm aware that it needs a good amount of tweaking, so please feel free to give critique or suggestions for things you would like to see in later versions. I will at some point be adding relics and deeds, but I may wait to release those until I can do so as part of a larger supplement I've been working on. This early release is so I can have some experienced feedback from the community and hopefully you folks out there can do some playtesting!

Cheerio,

-Rob

1. It's crap to give potentially 30 automatic CP for a history of fighting Astartes. That history has nothing to do with the Ruinous Powers or Warp nastiness. And I question the +10T…and the need to "balance" that with a BS penalty. I might change it to "+5 T, +5 to any Characteristic, but suffer -10 (-15? something like that) Fel in any social interaction with non-Minotaur Space Marines"

2. Some of your Pasts reference events that have yet to happen in FFG's setting, e.g. the Badab War. Small nitpick, but just wanted to point it out. Also I'd just flat-out make up some other times they creamed other Loyalists, because these pasts are way too focused on one single conflict.

3. Giant Slayer: why is this Solo Mode Active? It has all the indicia of a Passive-type. And I think it's a little too hyperfocused on fighting Astartes, unless you rule that Tau battlesuits count as "power armor"…I mean, technically, they are power ed armor. =P Give it a Rank 5 and 7 bonus too. Better yet, move the "automatic Razor Sharp" up to Rank 5 and put in new stuff for Rank 3 and 7.

4. Let None Escape looks OK, but clarify this for me. As-written under the right circumstances, it would allow a Kill-Team to spend their actions on a full-auto burst, then have a Minotaur (or Tacmarine, or someone with Assault Specialist, or anybody with Forging the Bond) call Let None Escape and immediately use their Reactions to Charge into melee? I mean, that's actually less powerful than Furious Charge, since that's a Free Action and you can do the exact same thing without needing a way to extend Chapter-specific Squad Modes to everyone.

5. Shield Wall is vague. How many additional Parries does each character benefiting from the Squad Mode get? As-written it appears to be infinite, or you can parry every single non-Horde melee attack coming in at you. What's considered "next to them?" Standard terminology for distance in Squad Mode is Support Range, so perhaps that? Or "within 5 meters" if you want them to be very close together? This is also properly priced at 3 given those effects as they are very good, especially with a Tactical Expertise Tactical Marine or your players have bought Forging the Bond.

6. I might switch Hatred: Xenos (any one) for Hatred: Adeptus Astartes. Table looks great, especially the 3 CHEAP Sound Constitutions.

7. Quicken is…really good, I probably wouldn't let it be sustained…and does it really fit the Minotaurs' aesthetic?

8. Terra's Call is a straight-up Cure Critical Wounds spell rather than something that grants temporary Wounds e.g. the Dark Angel modes. I'd instead make it like the latter: a spammable Vigor, if you will. If you want it to be a healbot spell, I'd also not allow it to be sustained because…that really confuses how it works, and make it Rank 3+ if not higher. Look how the Imperial Fists' Golden Son works for reference. This is too good especially at R1.

9. Facets of Fate works on allies too, yes? I'd make it a PR-scaling penalty, not flat untrained penalties. Flat untrained is going to be next to nothing at the endgame.

10. History's Shield looks OK, but this game is not big on automatic effects, I'd make it a Toughness or Willpower Test at a PR-scaling penalty to save vs. losing more actions. And as-written it won't work on Hordes, so.

11. Simulacrum: the test is way too easy to pass, not that marines are really hurting for Fate as it is.

12. A Razor Sharp Chapter Trapping? Really? The stats aren't bad, but I question that Quality on something you don't have to pay for at all.

STUFF I WOULD ADD:

-My personal idea of the Minotaurs as them with a Chapter Ally in the High Lords of Terra. Therefore, I gave them something like +5 T and the First Among Equals distinction, but they cannot give to or take from a community requisition pool at all.

-Another trapping or two, maybe totems taken from Astartes that you've killed.

-Add additional Solo and Squad Modes like First Founding did. I might go with something akin to BAs' Crimson Tide for attack.

Those are cool, but I haven't read it close enough to really give good feedback. I do however have some chapter specific wargear I wrote up a while ago.

Chapter Wargear

Spatha

1d10+6 E

Pen 7
Power Field

Renown: Distinguished [25]

A heavy, brutal power sword used by the elite of the Minotaurs who often use the bladed pommel and knuckle guard as a weapon in its own right. If a Battle-Brother scores 3 or more Degrees of Success on his attack roll he may immediately make another attack at a penalty of -10. This attack deals 1d10 Rending damage with a pen of 2; it may not be parried or dodged.

Hoplon

1d10 I

Pen 0

Balanced; Concussive [0]

Renown: Respected [15]

A Hoplon is a heavy, unpowered shield often carried by officers in the Minotaurs. It requires one hand and a special gauntlet to wield correctly and provides 4 AP to the arm it is attached to and to the body. The user must remove the gauntlet of his power armor to remove a Hoplon. It is well balanced for defense, but not for attack. The Swift Attack and Lightning Attack actions may not be taken with this weapon.

Barbaros Kopa [Relic]

1d10+8 E

Pen 12

Tearing; Power Weapon

Renown: Hero [65]

The Barbaros Kopa is a lost relic of the Minotaurs, how this spear came into the possession of the Deathwatch is unknown. The broad, golden blade bears the mark of the Minotaurs, however, and is known for bringing an end to enemy commanders and monstrous creatures, its machine spirit seeming to thirst for their destruction.

When fighting a Master level enemy the Battle-Brother gains +10 WS to all tests [in addition to the normal +10 WS from Master-Crafted] with this weapon and additional damage equal to his WS bonus plus one. These bonuses also apply when fighting creatures and vehicles of enormous size or greater.

Full disclosure - at work at the moment and the FFG forums look a lot like one of the technical forums I use for work purposes, but Google Docs doesn't, so I haven't read your fluff. My question is how have you justified Minotaur in the DW. Before their disappearance, they certainly weren't the sort to play nice with others - the general feeling I always got was that even the Flesh Tearers were all like, "Dudes - wanna take it down a notch?". Since they've reemerged they only deploy in full chapter strength and, other than a few of their commanders, the brother-astartes don't communicate at all with outsiders. Seems a bit problematic for a game (unless you've imposed massive Cohesion penalties)

Kshatriya said:

1. I realize the 3d10 corruption is a lot and may end up scaling it down. My idea of the role of corruption is to represent a lack of connection to the social norm around the character, not non-matrimonial warp relations. I wanted to use it to convey the extreme estrangement from most Astartes mindsets. As per your -10 fel suggestion, they have Rivalry (Adeptus Astartes).

2. The pasts were written assuming a campaign set after the Badab war (as mine is) which I keep forgetting is not the… I hesitate to say canonical time. As such I wanted to demonstrate that the entire chapter was fighting at the time of the war, and as such would all have important experiences relating to it.

3. My concept of the rules may be a bit fuzzy, but I thought that active solo modes (but not passive ones) drained the cohesion pool when used in squad mode. I had the idea that a Minotaur demonstrating his prowess at decimating power armor would make his kill team edgy and uncomfortable.

4. Because a Minotaurs character is unlikely to play a tactical marine, Let None Escape is really more intended to provide as much chapter character as possible when larger groups of them are together, such as in Badab War campaigns. I liked the idea that it let all Minotaurs in squad mode essentially charge as a group before the enemy can react. I'll have to look up furious charge again though and see if it needs tweaking. I may have to disallow the use of Minotaurs Squad Modes with Tactical Expertise.

5. I definitely need to adjust the wording on that. It should indicate that characters can parry for their allies using the exact rules used for parrying for themselves, assuming they are within yes, approximately 5m. This means they would spend their reaction to do so and could NOT do so in any circumstance in which they could not parry for themselves.

6. I figured hatred (adeptus astartes) was a bit much considering that a minotaurs character operating within the deathwatch would be tasked by his chapter with cooperating with the other marines. I also don't see the character of the chapter as being anti-space marine, only less interested in cooperation. I decided on hatred (xenos) because it says in the wiki **cough**mainsourceofinformation**cough** that they tend to be exceptionally xenophobic. Whether that meant xenos or anything besides themselves was a bit unclear.

7. The reason quicken is sustained is to lure players into nearly killing themselves through its use. Using it in a situation where the psyker was alone would be pointless if it was not sustained, as they would essentially get one turn per usual and take damage for it, as well as allowing enemies in range more attacks.

8. I really liked the idea of a kill spell that came back and bit you in the ass. There is a lot of room for adjustment on that one, but a push over the top that can kill you is the sort of way I love to see characters die. I may have to fiddle with the requirements or damage as you say.

9. I tried very hard to keep Facets of Fate from being too good. Most unmodified enemies have crap for BS, so I designed it as a way to ignore less potent ranged enemies and charge in on the big-bads.

10. I think History's Shield is pretty balanced the way it is. It's essentially a hail Mary in a sticky situation, and forcing the brother to push a power as a consequence for a temporary abatement seems an even trade considering this can kill them and potentially other members of the party outright.

11. It is pretty easy to pass, but remember that spending a fate point on such a test would be redundant and stupid. On a non-psyker character the odds are less than 50/50. I considered it just giving the brother an additional fatepoint to make up for what I took away in other places, but elected to essentially give them half of one.

12. Comparing it to a chainsword it parries at -20 less WS, has no tearing, and has a possibility with enough successes to do 4 extra damage that tearing will usually make up anyway. I think if anything this trapping is underpowered, especially if the player wants to keep it for late game for roleplaying's sake.

I actually debated with myself on giving them space marine trophy options as trappings, but as they're only allowed to carry one per the Deathwatch's strict rules I decided they wouldn't want to antagonize other marines any more than they already do by their mere presence. One of my focuses in making the chapter was to represent the estrangement between them and the larger pool of Astartes without making it impossible for them to play Parcheesi together.

Thank you very much for your suggestions and I'll be sure and take a look at the rules with them in mind!

Regarding some of your points, you are reading fluff into crunch WAY too much. For others you should not be overly carving out exceptions to the basic rules IMO.

I'll give more details and specificity after work.

1. I am going to continue to disagree with you about that, because that's not how Corruption is modeled in the system. Corruption models as Warp Corruption from one or more of the Ruinous Powers. And it leads to mutations and the like. It does not model "social norm connections"; if you want it to, you pretty much need to gut the Corruption system and rewrite it from scratch. Modeling "being bad at the social norm" is easier with things like Rival, Enemy, and flat Fel penalties since the Minotaurs are scary - they kill other Loyalist Astartes, how scared do you think the Guard and Navy are? Very.

3a. That's correct as to how it works, it just seems like more of a Passive thing, though if you want it to be a thing you need to spend Cohesion to use in Squad Mode, I'd make it a little more impressive. Compare the Active vs Passive Squad Modes. Passives usually provide a small if often-useful bonus - reroll Perception, reroll Concealment/Silent Move, add this Quality to your weapon, etc. Active are more often a bigger, more rarely used but "bigger bang" event - temporary wounds, bonuses to combat attacks/damage, etc.

3b. A +5 to WS as a Solo Mode is quite weak, ad I would still expand it to being better fighting anything in power ed armor - all SMs, battlesuits, mortals in power armor, etc. As it is, a +5 that you need to spend Cohesion to use in Squad Mode is nothing special. Even in Solo Mode it's pretty meh. Take a look at other Solo Modes and kick this one up a bit.

4a. Why is a Minotaur unlikely to play a Tacmarine? Minotaurs are Codex, meaning most of their Marines at any given time are Tacmarines. A Chapter that is unable to field Tacmarines is unable to field generalists; a Chapter that is unable to field, say, Devastators (e.g. BTs) is unable to field specialists. Big difference. Nowhere in the fluff does it say Minotaurs don't field Tacmarines, and it'd be sorta awful for them to do so, if not impossible. I mean…if Blood Angels and Carcharodons field Tacmarines, the Minotaurs definitely will too. =P Also arguably a squad of SMs from one Chapter will not use the Cohesion rules as written, since the RAW is designed to model SMs from multiple Chapters having to get over their preconceptions and prejudices to work together. SMs from all the same Chapter will work pretty much flawlessly together and I doubt they would even need Cohesion to use their Chapter-specific powers as one, or it would be at a much reduced cost, or something (all speculation since that would be more like a Grey Knights game, and Daemon Hunter doesn't even use Solo/Squad Mode).

4b. Why disallow using their Squad Modes with Tactical Expertise? The whole point of Deathwatch is learning from one another and being exposed to different tactics. Seems very arbitrary.

5. That's underwhelming if you basically just use your Reaction to Parry for someone else. There's a better Codex Squad Mode where you just give someone else your Reactions. That lets one person parry in a corridor or on a bridge vs every enemy trying to pass, while the rest of the KT blazes away with guns.

6. Don't read fluff into crunch. The Hatred talent is more "I am trained in hitting you with precision" than "I ****ing hate you." The latter is more Rival/Enemy or some of the special rules for one of the Rogue Trader Origin paths ("test Willpower when around the source of your hate, if you fail you must do something terrible to them ASAP"). Also I don't think IC the Hatred Talent is…ugh, I don't know how to write this because it really blurs the IC/OOC divide ad some degree of metagame. Basically don't read fluff into crunch, having Hatred doesn't mean you automatically hate the target of the Talent.

11/12. I see your point.

Wor woe woe at the possiblty of looking stupid the badab war has not happened yet?

maxximus said:

The FFG40k setting for Deathwatch is something like 817.M41. The Badab War occurs from 901-912.M41. The "mainline" 40k canon has the year as 999.M41. So the Achilus Crusade is "history" as far as playing in the "present" for the wargame is concerned.

I think too much was read into the Minotaur chapter.

The version up to M38 were simple shock troops which ignored chain of command and engaged in war of attrition. Would speculate that the Adeptus Mechanicus were trying to create an expendable chapter that can be rapidly replaced and trained.

Version M41 would appear to be a replacement based on High Lords of Terra taking over the project to create a hedge against the other forces of the Imperium. This version continues the rapid training and fast replenishment capability but with better command structure and strategic planning.

Also note this force is rarely deployed at less the Chapter strength.

I'd recommend Fellowship and Cohesion penalties for this chapter.

Would also play abilities around pinning and breaking pinning as it would fit a very aggressive play style.

I like these rules, but what about using the creation rules used for them in HTC? Apart from the Codex Advances and Squad/Solo mode abilities. +5 to 3 stats is pretty nice!