Into the Storm: p129

I know physics or engineering isn't exactly needed to write for Rogue Trader, but did no playtester or editor know enough to save the author from the shame of this?

Yes, that's … pretty far removed from real-world physics. I'm not 100% sure if a conventional (i.e. real-world) gun works in space, but I see no reason why it shouldn't. Gunpowder contains its own oxidiser, and the bullet already forms a seal with the barrel when fired to prevent windage. The only real problem is the combination of microgravity + recoil, which is a great way to send yourself tumbling.

Then again, this is based off a Games Workshop product, and they have a long history of only having a casual acquaintance with that 'science' business.

Cheers,

- V.

Reading this again, I see I was unnecessarily harsh and rude. It is only a game and I guess most players wouldn't see the error as starkly as I.

As well as recoil, a real problem with a gun in space would be thermal issues. Deep space is at about 3K, while the sunside is exposed to a high irradiance - depending on the sun and it's distance of course. Without insulation, radiator and heaters a normal gun might well pass outside its operating temperature range. Too cold and it could jam or fracture.

However, this is an issue with the gun, not the round.

Now that you mention it… That was inexcusably harsh of me - sorry.

I do have a bit more science background than average. (I think working twenty years as an engineer makes that a safe statement.) Usually, I can let the disbelief slide on the grounds that taking a five kilometer spaceship on a FTL trip through hell so you can duel your arch-enemy with a chainsword is just that cool. But, this time, ah, the handwavium got a bit tough to swallow.

Getting back to the firearms in space bit, I'd assume that a 40K naval pistol would function just fine. The right ceramic (or ceramic coating) will handle the thermal extremes in vacuum, and the Imperium does build rugged hardware. The Navy should have the brains to equip their own officers with a sidearm that's void-capable! A ground-lubber's gun, though, might have problems.

Cheers,

- V.

Agreed. Although I imagine most small arms engagements within vacuum, would still be within ships. So the temperature issue wouldn't normally arise anyway.

As a house rule I might degrade Reliability of weapons in open void - unless the weapon is designed to be void compatible - naval or astartes design.

I'll just ignore the void rounds rules.

But will a round fire when the temperature is 3K? It would be rather anoying to try to fire your trusty autorifle only to notice that the chemicals inside are to cold to go boom.

Still, I have to admit that the notion of firing an sp weapon in space sounds a bit off to me. The recoild for example would be a bad thing in zero g conditions.Not to mention things like lubricants freezing soldi or metals going brittle and burst under the stress of firing. Better to use a lasrifle I am sure.

Fresnel said:

The temperature issues would still be around, since the actual big problem in space with firing combustion-based weapons (well, actually any sort fo weapon that creates heat when beeing used) will be heat build-upand spreading said heat from the tool. Without a medium to carry the heat-energy away from the gun, it will overheat pretty soon.

Beyond that: We're talking about 40k Tech here. You can burry the most complex machinery in sand, dust, mud, drive over it, blow the ground up and let an Exterminatus running over the surface of the planet it's burried on and still more often then not use it (after uncovering it), as if it were brand-new. There are ships in the Navy, which are 10k or more years old and they do keep running nicely, despite nobody knowing how to maintain it properly at all. So, if there's one thing the Imperium can do, it's durability, especially if it's about something as simple has a handgun.

to Callidea

In vacuum, object radiatively balance to their surrounding. The gun would only be at 3k if it was far away from any hot object and in shadow for some time.

An object in low earth orbit averages about room temperature believe it or not. One side points to earth which averages about 273K radiatively and 50% of the time it is in sunlight. A black object would seesaw between temperature extremes with large gradients. A shiny object would suffer less extremes.

Of course you wrap satellites in insulation and add heaters and radiators to carefully control all these effects. So if you find a gun floating in deep space for hours, don't expect it to work.

In a typical RT situation you are flighting inside a ship, even if in vacuum you may still have gravity. So it wouldn't be an issue

To Madner,

You have a point about the lack of conduction/convection cooling. But then I did suggest degrading the Reliability of some weapons which would cover this.

The Machine Trait makes you inmune to void exposure (because the game assumes the only way you have to die in the void is lack of oxygen) and you care about some bullets that probably none uses? lol =P

It's a game, it doesn't have to be realistic, it has to be fun and enjoyable. I have a player who knows a lot about astronomy, for example, and sometimes is a pain in the ass because I don't much about the subject (mostly because I don't really care) and he's always making game speculations based on real world physics and astronomy.

When something like this happens, remember: the Emperor did it so. =P

Thanks for your concern. Be assured I wasn't emotionally scarred by the Void Round entry - I haven't been losing at sleep over it. Althought this may be because I am taking my meds again…

As my special Doctor recommends, I chant 'just a game' a thousand times before and after playing any roleplaying. Recommend it to your friend.

- Pardue

To Fresnel.

I am going to take you on your word here, but what happens if said gun you are toting around is in its sling (probably velcroed or something to make sure it does not float away) for say the hour you need to go from your vehicle to wherever you need to go to start the fight. It seems to me that it could have cooled or cooked for that matter if left in the sunlight quite a bit. I can imagine that a more stable and probably a lot more expensive round is to be used then.

To Maese Mateo, of course the machinetrait also protects you from the lack of atmosphere , heat and cold you would experience. Still, I find it to easy to obtain the machine trait.

Sister Callidia said:

As others have said, I think a Navy spec weapon would be designed for this sort of operation. Also IMO a typical Navy standard void-suit would come with a pistol and/or rifle holster that would at least insulate the weapon. So on balance I wouldn't worry about it.

I agree that it would make sense to have specialized weaponry for void conditions as I cannot imagine what could go wrong when presurized hot gasses suddenly erupts from a weapon that is not properly insulated/lubricated etc. I doubt that normal weapons would do well. For example autofiring without a coolant for the rifle? But perhaps the Navy has those mythcal weaponry but most explorers will not have one of those. So your argument that the weapons will be properly prepared for void conditions does not seem valid to me.

You're right that normal lubricants would quickly 'dry' and seize moving metal parts. However, with proper design and using vacuum compatible lubricants it's possible to have mechanisms operate reliably. That a Navy weapon circa M41 would operate fine in vacuum does strain my disbelief. There are plenty of reaction wheels and other mechanisms in space operating with M2 tech…

I don't quite understand why you are concerned about 'pressurised hot gasses'. Once the round is chambered, the barrel will cope with the 1000's of atmospheres of pressure generated regardless of the presence or not of 1 atm outside. Moving the round into and the spent shells out of the chamber is bit that might jam. Heat dissipation may be better or worse depending on the radiative environment, but RT rules don't address this Real World issue anyway.

Ymmv but I imagine Rogue Traders shop at same Forge Worlds as the Navy. So Navy spec weapons would be common on RT vessels.

But some people do know about those RL problems and I know that if you don't cool your barrel properly it will start doing bad things (not sure what though, my knowledge is not that great) . I know that a lot of people have asked about firing bullets in the void ansd what would happen. What is easier then introduce an item, say the void rounds that deals with all those discussions in one stroke? It would satisfy a lot of players, though not all of them as this topic proves. It would probably have been better to introduce a weaponmodification for void environments I guess.

Game rules to address 'simulationist' concerns add complexity, but please those player that like it 'more real'. Void rounds added complexity, but in a way that displeases anyone with a basic understand of guns - which I imagine is a fair proportion of players. ..

Otherwise Into the Storm is an excellent book.