I kind of want to run a game with maps on the board. I mean, I like the way the abstract combat works but in other games I see the GMs with their battle mats and even some of those preprinted ones and I just get… jealous. The game doesn't need it and my table's too small to have both a game mat and all the cards and trackers, but I do kind of long for it.

When my current gaming group started a couple of years ago, we started out with D&D4th edition, which had just launched. We played that for quite a while until we got fed up. Since then I've avoided games that use battlemaps for basic combat. It might look pretty, but it usually takes forever to run a fight and pulls the attention away from roleplaying.

RAR,

I've found grid maps to be useful for :

• Maptool games
• Dungeon combats with ghouls under Altdorf

I started with the 0D&D back in 1981 without a grid. Everything was narrative combat. Then we went to grids finally Advanced D&D with some miniatures but it didn't have anything to do with anything except for "positioning". With WFRP2e, we continued with the grid just because it felt like the right thing to do and we had developed all these bad habits from D&D3e thinking that if there wasn't 700 rules for every situation that we'd forget to put our pants on the right direction or something. It was a bad habit I had developed from playing tabletop tactical miniatures games such as D&D.

Now with WFRP3, my games have gone away from dungeons and tactics towards descriptors (lately, which way the PCs want to run away).

I have a general rule when it comes to WHEN WE NEED A GRID (which does occur):

* Movement is 30' / maneuver (2 for long and 3 for extreme of course)

* Engagement is base to base, 5' away is close

I haven't seen the need for micromanaging it (such as variable movement types for armor, halflings or whether a character has a gimp foot or the galloping trots). Minimizing the amount of rules for such a thing keeps the game in the imagination of the players and allows them to describe rather than trying to manipulate or look up rules.

I think if you keep it simple, you can use a grid/map in a useful way without turning it into Warhammer Fantasy Battles (or worse, something like D&D4!).

jh

..

Ralzar said:

Well, I'm in the phase of gamer cycle where I'm not worried about pulling attention away from roleplaying,but really the point is they look really pretty!

If I ever really wanted to include a map in a Warhammer game I'd do it similar to the zones in Fate games like Spirit of the Century or Legends of Anglerre-- basically mark of secitions of the map. Everyone in a given section is in close range, adjecent sections are medium, etc. This has the same functional effect of the abstract range rules, but makes it easier to track action in multiple directions.

I don't really crave the fidliness of the battle mat, just the clearer points of reference.

And the prettiness.

Maps are integral to a tactical game like D&D. I see WFRP between a pure narrative game like some indie RPGs and a tactical (war game) style system.

I do understand the liking of visuals, which is where handouts, scans, print offs, location cards can all come in. I often print offin large scale a map like Grunewald Lodge or the Three Feathers Inn, to help the imagination, whereas the fight in the sewer is stand ups and range markers. One beef I have with WFRP is that the maps etc are too small to be good table props. A general beef I have with most game publishers is the great art in GM-only books (which is where scanner etc. comes in).

It is good to spark player creativity with a bit of visual. Though as my players get used to system they are starting to shine in narrating without map. One narrates torch on wall to seize and Fluster undead with, another narrates the sewer muck he uses with a DirtyTrick. In neither case did I have to have a map out as in D&D with torches and muck marked.

I have seen some attempts at merging tactical combat with this ruleset, but from where I was sitting It all appeared to be effectively an attempt to convert this game into 4th edition and I agree with Ralzar… If you want to "get over" your need for tactical combat, play 4th edition, after that you'll never want to do it again. If you want to break up your group and throw it off the rails, add tactical combat to a game that is not designed for it. Sure fire way to ruin your game (trust me, three decades of doing stuff like this worth of experiance talking here).

I think the problem with tactical combat in most RPG's is that it effecitvely works against the spirit of the game which is dramatics, cinematics and narrated stories. Tactical combat while it looks great on the table, has the very oppossite effect of feeling very regimented and obvious. It becomes less a question of who will win the fight and what happens in the fight and more a question of "how many rounds will it take to clean everything up off the table". 4th edition was a balanced tactical game, so there was a certain interest in the tactical mini game as it could suprise you now and again, but it didn't happen often enough to make it worth the effort.

I have never seen any role-playing game in the entire history of role-playing games that was improved by tactical combat and I have spent the last 3 decades trying to find one because I agree, there is an alure to it. Its almost as if it "should" be in the game. I've just got no examples where it actually has and every game I have ever run that had tactical combat ultimatly became a rule lawyered mess and derailed.

But every GM has to make his own way, I just thought I would save you a couple decades of wasted effort, I wish somebody would have given me this advice years ago. Would have saved some potentially awsome campaigns that failed.

I don't disagree with the OP's need to have something prettier on the board besides cards, but in my game I use them more as symbols than actual tactical stuff.

For example: For False Pretenses, you can have the entire town of schlaghugel laid out, with the mound, creek, and markers for nearby Wood Elf contact points without taking up too much space. I like to use moss/lichens, minature trees, a plastic river, and cottages (by Conflix). I also made burning stakes with skulls. My considerable variety of miniatures comes in handy when it comes to having figures in the streets as well. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of the layout.

For my next game, my party is stuck in the swamps east of Aarnau (northern Marienburg Wastes), and so my gridded Pathfinder/Paizo forest map will come in handy for representation.

Normally, I just use a green model train layout grass field.

I've got some city streets from old D&D products, but none are satisfactory. I'll probably need to take a look at what Paizo has for a drop down map. It would be nice to have outlines of buildings at least.

jh

Here is a set of pictures from a full set up for False Pretenses: www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/270353-wfrp-3-our-last-set-up-used-miniatures-different-party-card.html

Here are some discussions regarding: forum.rpg.net/showthread.php

Another: forum.rpg.net/showthread.php

Below: Here's just a pretty useless sample picture of some mini's vertically, but I'll try to find my old picture of the full False Pretenses layout.

jh

Yeah we definitely use coloured dungeon tiles but we don't bother with squares. We just use the visual props for reference.

Often features have associated Location Cards. Like the narrow bridge on the board uses a Location Card that is similar in theme, while the others who are located on the nearby road use another location card.

I have good old Warhammmer Quest at home, and I've been thinking of having an adventure where I use the dungeon deck and cardboard dungeon pieces to make a randomized dungeon crawl. The tile size is just right and it seems to fit like a glove with the cardboard standups from WFRP. It will only be for a one-off though. I'm not too fond of dungeon-crawls or battlemap fighting, they take too long.

Ralzar said:

I am going to be doing the same thing, except each room won't be literal in size and dimensions. Each room type will have an associated Location Card for both flavor and environment effect (Clockwork Room, Fire pits, toxic sewer etc). That way it says witht he theme of abstract distances.

It could work really well!

I use maps, minis, and cardstock scenery, but mostly because I love to build the cardstock scenery. If I don't have time to build, I use flat maps that I make on Campaign Cartographer. I also use images and sounds on my iPad--all of these because they're beautiful. With my particular group, all of those things lead to better roleplaying as they ask questions about what they're seeing and feel more confident about interacting with the scenery.