dboeren said:

You are wrong, there is such a thing for an existing LCG. There is a website to buy AGoT LCG cards in faction lots. There is demand for this type of thing. Especially for competitive players who have multiple decks.

And people trade cards on the AGoT boards. There is a section of its forums specifically devoted to trading http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_temas.asp?efid=17&efcid=4

CoC has one too: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_temas.asp

Also I would argue that using those extra "non-playable" cards to give to friends is a VERY good use for them. That is how I got my friends in to AGoT LCG. I gave them cards for houses I had no interest in playing so they could have decks too to get started with.

Toqtamish said:

That AGoT trade forum showed one other potential problem with LCG model. Some 15$ retail price Chapter Packs for AGoT sell for over 100$ in ebay because those has been out of print. FFG has to constantly reprint Chapter Pack cycles so every card is easily available for retail price. There is a problem when one specific pack from one cycle is very good and it includes many tournament staples. This situation gets harder and harder when more expansions are printed. I think this kind of situation shouldn't happen in LCG model and getting whatever card you like just buying a specific expansion pack is one of the biggest selling points of LCG model.

absolutely, the main problem with the LCG model is that if you do not buy the packs as they come out you can nvr really get started. It is a huge problem for new players.

Personally I like the way FFG dose core sets and hope they nvr change it.

There is a trade forum for Call of Cthulhu, but I haven't seen it used for trading singles. Generally it's people trying to get rid of old CCG-era cards, looking for CCG-era cards, or occasionally to split a Secrets of Arkham set (which came with 2x copies of cards).

If things go out of print in A Game of Thrones, then I could see an aftermarket for that. None of the Call of Cthulhu packs are out of print, so I wasn't aware this was an issue - I would say this is FFG dropping the ball as there should be no such thing as an out of print pack (other than very temporarily) while the game is still alive. That's unfortunate, but I'm pretty sure a brand new game like Netrunner won't have a problem with old packs being out of print - there ARE no old packs. Cthulhu is waiting for reprints of one older cycle, but only to convert them from the old 40 card format to the newer 60 card format, not because you can't get them at all.

You're also talking about faction lots and unwanted factions. That seems to be rather different from what I've seen in Call of Cthulhu too, people there typically do not think of any faction as being "their faction", they play all of them and you can mix factions freely in a deck. I expect that Netrunner players will want to keep all factions as well as there is no storyline attachment to a particular faction as there seems to be in AGoT and you're required to play both sides on a regular basis.

Anyway, I guess the total of what I'm saying is that those reasons may exist for AGoT, and I can see how coming from the perspective of different games makes us each view this issue somewhat differently, but I'm not sure that these reasons will apply much to Netrunner.

No one can say anything about Netrunner potential for trading or singles demand, at least until it is closer to being out and we can at least see the rules. For all any of us know, it might totally suck.

FFG has been reprinting packs for AGoT and CoC as they go out of stock, and the nice thing about that is they are being reprinted as 60 card packs with 3 of every card rather than the older model of 40 cards, 3 copies of 10 and 1 copy of the other 10 cards. So hopefully not much longer and the first two cycles will get the same treatment.

booored said:

This is bit offtopic but this is my main problem with FFG LCG. What is FFG long term plan with their LCG products? I think AGoT is starting to come in a situation where it is just way too hard for newbies to start playing. There are so many expansions and you have to spend hundreds of dollars if you want to play in tournaments also. This situation is getting worse and worse. I own 2x AGoT Core and it works ok as a board game but I will not buy more products because it is too hard to really get into game now. I can see 2 different plans with AGoT by FFG:

1. Long term plan: Start reprints of the one whole expansion cycle in a cheaper deluxe expansion or start some tournament format where only some part of cards are allowed. There could be many different solutions, these are just examples. Basics is making a real plan how to attract new players for AGoT and keeping the game alive and growing for many years. Anyway something has to done, just releasing new expansions and reprinting old ones will not last in the long run.

2. Short term plan: Just accept that AGoT won't attract new players any more and player base will decrease slowly. Still release expansions because there still are lot of players even when player base decreasing. Don't change the business model and let the players decide how long they will buy AGoT products. To get more paying customers start releasing new interesting LCGs to attract new players. Many not hardcore fans of the old LCGs will jump to the newer LCG anyway.

Then there are players who just buy one core set but those players are not included in this.

I hope FFG will choose option 1. and I find option 2. bit cheap. There hasn't really been any indicators which they will choose but not hurrying to reprint or even making announcement of out of print AGoT Chapter Packs is bit worrying. I am very interested to see how FFG handles the AGoT situation. Until then it is hard for me to spend lot of cash to any LCG.

Hellfury said:

Hahahaha. You might want to actually talk to some of the people from FFG. I have talked to two different LCG designers and they both said (independently) that they had always hoped they would be able to do x3. That was what they had originally planned, but the numbers didn't make sense. Of course they could have been lying, but they certainly have a better idea what the motivation and influence was, knowing all sides of it, where what you know is solely what you hope and dream their motivations and influences are. You have no facts on your side. Correlation does not equal causation. What I can do is see a proven track record of good stuff coming from FFG. What I see from players is a bunch of people with no business background and no knowledge of the industry outside of their own desires and experiences disagreeing repeatedly on what the best way to do something is. So yeah, smart money says go with FFG if I have to choose.

But there are new players starting AGoT on a daily basis (yes, daily, it is pretty **** amazing that way). You don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to play in a tournament, but you do need hundreds of dollars to be truly competitive in a tournament. Those are two different things. However if anyone thinks any form of rotation or limited format would effectively change this without killing the game they are deluded. Two core sets, a deluxe expansion box, and two cycles of cards is the minimum to own to be able to put together a serious competitive deck that stands a chance at winning a tournament. Sure you could almost certainly win at your local store if you have simply one deck from a core set, one deluxe expansion and one cycle of cards, but your ability to fine tune your deck to exploit the wholes in other decks, close up the holes in your own, and generally exploit the metagame is dependent on having a diverse cardpool as well as being able to focus your deck. That can only happen with a certain number of cards to draw from.

If you want to be a competitive player from day 1 you need to spend about $250. If you want to really be able to kick ass and take names you need to spend about $400. After that investment, you will probably at best not need to spend more than $45 a year. Now compare that to having to spend over $500 for a single tier 1 deck in a game like Magic and then another $150-$250 dollars every rotation assuming your deck can be updated rather than having to be completely torn apart and replaced.

As to Chapter packs for AGoT being out of print, that is a new issue. There are two chapter packs in the last month that seem to have finally been sold out everywhere. Prior to that they were hard to find, but they could be found in stores. three months ago the local store I played at had at least 4 of each of them. One guy came in and bought them all. I'd be surprised if FFG didn't announce a reprint of those in the next month or two. That packs go out of print and there is some lag in the reprint, that is just the nature of supply and demand. Capitalism is far from perfect, but you don't really expect FFG to reprint a product and then sit on it taking up space in their warehouse until the stores sell out do you? That is just bad business. Sure it is inconvenient for those players who want those packs, but they are not a requirement to play in a tournament and several tournament decks placing in the top 8 and top 4 have few if any cards from those packs. Some of the decks of course have cards from them that play a central role. the point is you don't need them to be competitive, you just need them to build a specific kind of deck.

But seriously at this point we have wandered far afield about discussing card distribution in A:N and are discussing the merits of the LCG model… which I have to say, if you don't like it no one is forcing you to play a game that uses it. There are a number of amazing games in the traditional CCG model and stand alone card game model. There is a certain amount of discussion and emailing to FFG that expresses your view in an informative way that they can balance against their own market research, and then there is just complaining because you want the attention and you feel that your emotions are somehow more important than FFG's bottom line and everyone else's emotions on the subject.

Hellfury, I'd like to apologize with my tone in my last post that quoted you. I'm excited about the game being redone, and about the LCG model in general. I really have had a number of interactions with FFG employees at Gencon and other events and try to engage them in talk about the inner workings (as much as they can actually tell me) of the company and model because I am such a fan. That however is no excuse for me being a ****** about any of it. I apologize. I would delete the post, but I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to cover up my actions. I made them, I'll deal with the opinions and dismissals that come from them. I do hope you accept my apology though.

Penfold said:

I think this is a fairly good estimate. There's also some ability to trade off one for another - you could perhaps swap a Core set for a few more packs, etc.. but generally this feels about right to me.

If you just want to make a good enough deck to play at the local game night and hold your own, I think you can get by with less than this, maybe one cycle instead of two? It's all in how many choices and how competitive you want to be. You don't HAVE to buy anything you don't want to.

Penfold said:

Before responding I want to acknowledge Penfold's later post and will respond with that post in mind.

I would love to analyze your post sentence by sentence, but forumware shittiness and lack of time prohibit this.

I will say that I do talk to FFG employees quite frequently, since whenever I go to a game shop, it has been the FFG EC. I know many of their former and current employees from outside of that environment as well, some even before they even worked for FFG. Nothing discussed with me is ever outside of their NDA I want to emphasis. So you may very well be privvy to other info that I am not.

Second of all, I have all the evidence I need to prove this. Its called a forum post. Many in fact. They predate your membership to this site by quite a bit.

I also have heard from a couple designers that the decision to go with the 3x method was brought about because of the feedback garnered from consumers. To the point where the not only instituted it for future packs but to retcon those that came before so that the product would be consistent and less confusing.

I dont see how FFG employees can say "We were going to do that, yet the numbers dont make sense and didnt do that until lots of people told us too, so therefore we get credit for the idea because somehow the numbers magically made sense." and not sound disingenuous.

Believe what you will, as clearly your evidence contradicts my own.

I will say that the assumption you make that players are constantly disagreeing with the best way to do something is a statement based in the deepest egotism. We all feel our own positions are likely the best way to do something, yet who is able to judge what really is best?

The people who make the product, or the people who decide its merit and patronize it? In a capitalist society, I am siding with the consumer six times out of ten.

I consider the hatchet buried. The bottomline is we are fans of their products and it is good to keep that in mind no matter how heated the discussion becomes. Not only for forum users but for FFG themselves.

Because no matter how sugar-coated or nasty the criticisms or suggestions may be given, they are offered to allow FFG to succeed whether they heed such feedback as constructive or not. That is why these forums exist at all.

I think FFG (specifically those at FFG such as Peterson) lose sight of that fundamental fact and tend to write off any but the most damaging criticism as trolling. I wont be so brusque as to go into why as that would go even further off the topic than we already are. But it still has to be said.

I agree with Penfold on basically everything he said, my LFG never, NEVER, has any Thrones core sets in, even though they get a few in every month or two. They sell like hotcakes.

As I've said before, my meta consists mostly of people who own 1 core set, 1 deluxe and two or three packs. Thats a total investment of just under $100 (less of the people who split the core set) over the last 2 years. The thing is with the LCG, as with anything, if you don't want to buy it you don't have to. But for the people who want to be tournament standard they can buy what they see, rather than random booster boxes, and know their cards will not only be top teir but that they will be viable next year, and the year after, etc.

Were so hung up on talking about "casual" plyers or people just geting in but is it so diferent in magic or any other card game? You buy the starter, maybe a pack or two, play it a bunch. If you still like it, buy a few more packs. If you Still like it, go competative. What's the big difference again? That it feels overwhelming for new players to start? Personally I feel more overwhelmed by Magic when I played it than with Thrones, infact I think the LCG provides a simple continuity of packs, all with their internal logic, that is easy for new players to grasp. In Thrones if someone says "I like The Brotherhood" you tell them to buy the Brotherhood cycle. In Magic if someone says "Asian inspired art" you can tell them that Kamigawa is rotated out, but if theyre lucky they can get the older packs, and Hopefully get some rares in those or else fish on a singles store and then their cards will still not be valid 50% of the time. How is that better?

I guess what I'm saying is that by staying away from rotation and showing people what's in each pack LCGs manage to keep a strong sense of continuity and internal logic. In a game that rotates if your favourite cards just rotated out youre boned. Play the game with new themes that may not be to your liking or get out =/

Well yea MTG system is terrible. I think many agree with that but I guess MTG is good example because everybody knows it. I just don't think "only almost as costly to play in high level as MTG" is very good thing for any game. But this is a bit personal issue for me. I played a lot of tournament Magic from Ice Age to Invasion but haven't bought any packs since then and now I play different and more specialized CCGs. I just hoped LCGs would avoid one of the biggest problem of CCGs which is the huge investment if you want to focus in tournament play.

But I still like LCG model because it offers easy way for casuals to get into games. You can just buy 1-2x core sets and some expansions and you are good to go. That is why Netrunner core should offer great experience out of the box also. But old school Netrunner worked very good just with starters so I think Netrunner might work good also with 1x each card. There just have to be instructions what kind of decks you can build out of Core set. I hope also they make a lot of cards in core set solid and playable so it offers more strategies. This was one problem in CoC core set. There were too many cards costing too much and some not so great cards. So deck building with just core set felt surprising shallow. But Core set should be introduction which also works as stand alone game. Rulebook should say that if you enjoy deck building aspect also you should start buying some expansions. I actually think Netrunner has chance to do this best of all LCGs this far if FFG has play tested the core set enough.

I'd like to add that when I started playing Call of Cthulhu, the known-content packs and online deck builders made it a very low-intimidation event.

I decided up front that I wanted to field a Dark Young themed deck with some Syndicate support (to keep the cost down), and I was able to go to cardgamedb.com and browse all the cards filtering for that subtype. I examined the cards, looked at what packs they were in, and what potentially useful Syndicate cards I wanted were in those packs as well. I tried to put them in a rough priority order, and decided on a reasonable budget. Everything that fit in the budget was ordered from top priority down, and with the small number of leftover card slots I made due with some second-choice cards.

By following this process I was able to build the exact deck I wanted buying a fairly small number of packs. Any new player can follow a similar process instead of feeling that he has to buy everything. If he has an experienced player available to advise him, he can get an even more competitive deck out of it than I did - at that time I was only a beginner and my deck design judgement wasn't as good as today.

^ That right there is why the LCG model is so powerful. Any player with half a brain will be able to plan out their deck construction simply, and without much fuss. Most gamers would do the same, and those that just buy blindly would pobably have the same problem in any game, LCG or otherwise.

That said, I think the one thing that keeps the LCG back, profit wise, is the lack of a strong draft format. I know people home brew their own but nothing beats the word of the developer on something like this. Drafts are one of the best ways to make money off a card game And one of the most enjoyable ways to play for players of all skill levels, its a shame that the LCG can't provide that to a certain degree, but this is way off topic!

Has anyone taken into account the "spam-like" nature of Netrunner? Assuming they don't use the 3x card limit (which I'm REALLY hoping they don't, since it ruins some of the fun Archetypes like Rio and PM/PWS) then 3x/2x/1x would be fine…if they 3x the right cards. I'll gladly buy 3x core sets if every one has 3 (or more) Jack-n-Joes, Brokers, BSBs, or any other card that can be used across multitudes of decks. However, I would hate the all 3x model if I had a bunch of Corpse Call, Management Shake-Ups, PWS, etc. sitting around. I would also hate 1x if they don't limit the card counts because I can't buy 6x Core sets to make my Rio Deck or my Corp War/AMS deck. Get what I'm saying? It depends on the card restrictions…

Nothing is known yet for sure, but we do know that none of the other LCG's allow more than 3x copies of a card. Also, I think a fair number of people would be unhappy if they were "forced" to buy multiple copies of each pack, which is how many of the casual players would see it - that the company was trying to squeeze more money out of them or else they wouldn't be competitive.

It's a problem easily solved though. If there are some cards that you somehow need many of to enable an interesting deck type, you can always issue multiple slightly different cards (maybe different in name only and nothing else). Then you can keep the 3x rule and still allow 9x or 12x or whatever you want on a card-by-card basis.

Totally agree, I would be upset to by 3 Core to have the best cards *3 (curiously, most of the time the *1 cards are the strongest)

But FFg knows that if the games is good we will buy at least 2 (if we can wait for the further packs) or 3 if we can't

Hellfury said:

I feel exactly the same way, which is why I bought precisely one core set. However, there is nothing in this argument against buying a first copy of the core set. You can make do with what comes in the box, but then again, I don't do tournament play. (Then again, are there LotR tournaments? If you're playing at home, then you're just playing a coop with an additional handicap. No big deal.)

Also, did you realize that they include 4x Gandalf in the LotR core? I don't hear about people with one set chucking him out. Instead, he gets used in multiple decks, which I feel is the correct response to this situation.

DerBarchen said:

For reference, Warhammer: Invasion has a draft variant.

swingjunkie said:

Surely with Android: Netrunner being different to the original game, this type of thinking may no longer be relevant? I'm not saying this version would be an entirely different beast, but if you new limits are in effect then surely the only recourse is to adapt to what is provided rather than attempting to retread the old paths.

Decks might no longer be strong for fielding, say, a disproportionate amount of Bodyweight Synthetic Blood or Corporate Wars, but they can still be strong within the given constraints, whatever they might be.

I bought into Netrunner late and it had all but dissapearerd from the shelves in the UK. A starter set and half a dozen booster. I mainly played with my eldest boy in the summer before he started University. He left with Net runner and returned them home along with thousands of MTG cards and some accompanying books 7 years later (March 2012), for storage. He is excted as am I concrning its re release.

I am concerned with the LCG requirement of multiple core decks to be tournement effective. Maybe FFG should consider some Faction expansions to bring certain Fctions (Runner or Corporation) singly or in multiples up to the requirerd level.

LOTR LCG is one of my favourites however IMO the deck building aspect has almost superceded the theme and the latter is the most enjoyable part. Too muck deck building and it becomes some sort of abstract bridge game with extras. This could be addressed by restricting cards (heroes , allies, events etc ) to specific adventures e.g. Mirkwood ,Dwarrowdelf etc and I would like to see a time line. This as an expansion together with 2 x certain cards to bosts the core set would be welcomed by me and maybe others. Until this guide appears by FFG or A N other I am halting my collection at the Core, Mirkwood cycle , The Massing at Osgiliath nad Khazad-dûm . As more and more the forums turn to cross cycle deck building.

I really hope Netrunner works and retains its great playability. My son may have been corrupted by Richard Garfild's sequel MTG but I hope not.

It would be great if Netrunner was limited to say core set and only a few expansions it may not fit FFG's profit model but it would certainly prevent LCG's being seen as just a profit cyle and for OC collectors ( a habit I have broken)

First off I am totally new to all of this LCG gaming and FFG as a company so please consider this before flaming me. I bought tons of CCGs back in the day; trust me if it was printed I probably have it. One of the things that concerns me is the lack of any company rep posting anything in the boards. Most every game I have ever bought had the rules and card lists out way before the game was released. This allowed people to learn the rules and even in some cases start to think about the decks they wanted to build before the cards were in your hand. Netrunner was one of the few games I never bought and I have heard players state that this was an awesome game with wonderful mechanics and gameplay. I am more than willing to put some cash down for this but I am worried about the lack of solid information on the game here on the website. I mean as a case of point they have in the news section about the Gen Con Tournament. It says to look for the info in the support section of the Android Netrunner site yet there is nothing there at all.

Please FFG get us some solid info (card list and rules) on the site. Netrunner, from what I hear, is a solid game that people have been waiting to see again. I do not think that giving the consumer more information will hurt sales of this in any way at all. Like I have stated I have never bought any of your products and more info would be the tipping point for me to decide whether to give you my money.

Thanks for listening to me.

FFG has already stated that they will have the rulebook up before Gencon. No specific date has been given, but it WILL be there. Also, since this is a reprint it's fairly easy to pull up the original Netrunner rules if you want to get a general idea of how it will work. There may be some minor changes, but I doubt the core rules will be any different. As for the "look in the support section" - that post just went up a couple of days ago. Give them some time.

FFG doesn't typically post much to the forums for any of its games. What they typically DO do is put up periodic small articles, but they probably won't do many of these until after the game goes live. In these they frequently show off new cards that will come out in future sets, but I haven't seen them do it for a game that isn't released yet.

While you will see the rules (or you can look at the original ones now), I highly doubt they will post a list of ALL cards. They've never done that for any game they make. They've shown some cards, and will likely preview a few more, but that's all you're going to get until launch.

dboeren:

FFG has already stated that they will have the rulebook up before Gencon. No specific date has been given, but it WILL be there. Also, since this is a reprint it's fairly easy to pull up the original Netrunner rules if you want to get a general idea of how it will work. There may be some minor changes, but I doubt the core rules will be any different. As for the "look in the support section" - that post just went up a couple of days ago. Give them some time.

Me : In essence, they're abusing the fact this game is loved and well known. It gives them license to take their time with information, knowing people will stay firmly baited to the hook (which, when you think about it, is the only real business purpose of preview information).

dboeren:

FFG doesn't typically post much to the forums for any of its games. What they typically DO do is put up periodic small articles, but they probably won't do many of these until after the game goes live. In these they frequently show off new cards that will come out in future sets, but I haven't seen them do it for a game that isn't released yet.

Me : They do it all the time for their board games, in fact most only get these articles prior to release. 'Course, that just makes sense since, again, previews primarily serve baiting purposes.

dboeren:

While you will see the rules (or you can look at the original ones now), I highly doubt they will post a list of ALL cards. They've never done that for any game they make. They've shown some cards, and will likely preview a few more, but that's all you're going to get until launch.

Me : I'll second this. Never seen them post all the cards in any shape or form. Even their manuals lack card references.

p.s. Whomever set these forums up should be flogged. No user acceptable BBCode? Pishaw!! "Pishaw," I say!