Hi,

I would like to discuss a characteristic trait of the dwarf Slayers. They seek to die in combat, yeah we know that, but does any combat serve the porpose? I mean, will the Slayer face any combat, no matter the foe or how challenging it is? or has he (/she) certain degree of choice?

I ask this because in my games, often, there are combat encounters that cannot be won be sheer force or numbers. In order to have a chance in these kind of combats, the PCs must have done good investigations /social interactions that provide them with vital information of the enemy (weaknesses etc.) or curry allies to fight by their side. Failing to do so, typically results in a combat they cannot win. If the PCs cannot avoid the combat, the best of the reaction is to flee.

My question is, will a Slayer PC do not engage in the combat, and follow his colleagues in a strategical retreat?

Another example could be a PC scouting party finds an Orc camp full of enemies. Will the Slayer charge against the orcs? or knowing he has not a single chance of surviving will he walk away with the rest of the PCs?

I gave here two examples, but there are many more that can occur in a normal playing session, where retreating /walking away is the only option to live one more day as an adventurer.

What do you do with Slayers in these situations? or how do you play your Slayer in these cases?

I've never had a slayer in my group, but I've given it much thought

This is mainly my own views, and not necessarily lore.

A slayer seeks honorably death, not suicide. And this is the key to make them function in a group.

First of all, it's not honourably to die, if you dying means you also sacrifice the whole group. So charging a Witch-hunter and his posse, and then dying is not honourably, if it means you then doom your comrades! Here a slayer should keep his axe low, and let the talkers do their thing. But if the Witch-hunter as much as threaten his friends!!!

Secondly, charging the first dragon you see, as a troll-slayer, is also not honorably, as even a brainless zombie would know he stood no chance. And thus we return to suicide, which holds no honour. A fight has to have two key things:

1) A purpose, thus killing a Knight-Panther holds no purpose, as you weaken the dwarven allies. A purpose is for example to drive back a orc horde.

2) A chance of completing the purpose. So even if it saves a village to kill a rampaging dragon, you have no chance of success. But killing the orc warlord, even dying afterwards, will make the horde crumple, and so by dying you still "win".

So the line between honourably death and "suicide" might seem slim, but the difference lies in the purpose and the chance of completing your purpose.

A known example is Boromir in LotR, he dies with high high honour, trying to save Frodo. He could have failed, but even if they had gotten Frodo, he'd still die with honour, as he started out thinking he was able to do it.

Boromir's death stands out to me, as the best example (I know of) that resembles how a slayer should die.

I think typically you want to give a character other motivations than those that come with their profession as a way to make them distinctive from the rest of the people in that profession. Another words if your Bounty Hunter, you don't want them walking into the game as nothing more than a Bounty Hunter. They need purpose. Its the same for Troll Slayers, he should have a reason he wants to stay alive… for now. I generally ask that my troll slayer players create that purpose, or I create it for them so that they aren't just suicidal dwarfs, because otherwise when scenarios like this do come up, the correct play for the player is to do just that… fight to the glorious death as this cannot be made any clearer in the writing, purpose and reasoning of a Dwarf Troll Slayer.

That's really the greatest challenge of having a Slayer in the group, and a challenge I would share with the whole group, both the player playing the Slayer and the rest.

The first thing I would notice is that probably the player doesn't really want his character to die meaninglessly. And the other players and probably the other characters probably doesn't want the group to try suicidal strategies. So I would be really straightforward in saying that everyone needs to take this challenge seriously, in giving reaons for the Slayer character don't put the group at risky without necessity.

If you read through Gotrek and Felix series, you'll have a lot of examples when Felix convinces Gotrek (and other Slayers as well) to not give in to the lust of searching his doom in face of overwhelming odds. Gotrek would do it, more frequently than not: run against a rampaging horde of Beastmen and such. As fits his personality, he wasn't thinking in Felix's safety, or if he could achieve something with it or not. It was honorable to kill as many Chaos creatures as he could, and he would try it. As Gotrek is a really outstanding fighter, with an incredible rune axe, he would probably finish a lot of Beastmen before falling.

But different characters could have different personalities and aims. Other Slayer from the same series, Makaisson, isn't seen looking for his doom anytime during the whole of Demonslayer book. He is focused in piloting a zeppelin and probably would engage the enemies just if they were attacking directly his aircraft.

So to balance character personality with group play would be a great way to prevent unnecessary risks (in the view of other characters that not the Slayer), and the Slayer character dying to fast for his player to have fun. The other characters could say that would be more honorable to avoid this conflict because they knoe of a greater enemy (maybe not in terms of numbers, but of meaning) to be engaged after. This kind of excuse works a lot for Gotrek, to keep the example, and is better when it is true. :]

Has this helped anyway?

Guys, this is the kind of guide I was looking for. Thank you a lot.

I have been playing Warhammer since the first edition, but strange as it may sound, I have only been gm of one slayer before, and that was…well! that was before we had enough lore of the warhammer world even to know what a Slayer was. Now, with more years and way more immersion in the Old World, I have to be again the GM of a party containing a Slayer.

These kind of comments help alot.

It's great to read that, since it's great to be of help!

I point Gotrek and Felix a lot because to me it was amazing to get in contact with the way dwarfs see the world, their "mind frame" (specially in Demonslayer, the last one I read), at least for the author. I had the concrete idea that the dwarfs have what humans (what I) would consider an alien mentality. For them, for example, honor is not a thing that you have or you don't, a paragon of behaviour, but really some law of physics, some force of nature. You don't question honor (although I can imagine you could question what's more honorable in a given situation). Dwarven society is almost perfect in that sense.

Of course, that makes playing and dealing with a Slayer character all the more difficult. Gotrek only survives because he is such a killling machine. It's hinted he was already an engineer (although he could just have the basic knowledge all dwarfs have), and he had already gone and came back from the Chaos Wastes even before he became a Slayer.

So maybe that's really why he jumps into any knd of fight, because he doesn't have to worry about having a mighty doom when common fights (like against a bunch of orcs, bleh, easy) doesn't pose a threat to him. A starting Slayer character would have to think about that. Dwarfs usually don't run for battles, and more than a couple of them would rush into one. Being such battle focused, Slayers would do that even more. So I completely agree with Spivo, that the search of a Slayer being for honorable death, or a mighty doom, is key to having a Slayer in a group and still having fun about it.

But don't take that for granted! It is completely coherent that a group would face constant risk of getting into too much heat when one of the companions is a Slayer. So that should be present in the roleplaying. And even the player of the Slayer character could ask for help when the only possibility he sees for his character is for him to jump against a dragon (because maybe he considered that if he doesn't make a fool of himself, that would be a mighty doom). While the goal of the Slayer is to die in battle, the goal of his player possibly is that he fails in that, and so evolves as a PC, at least till a great roleplaying opportunity when dying would be real fun and really touching (do you remember the dwarf in that fantasy roleplay based anime, Record of Lodoss War?) - which would often be at the end of a campaign.

And that not to say how fun it is to play a character that actually becomes depressed when he doesn't die after a great combat…

Unfortunately Gotrek is perhaps not the best Slayer to base your ideas on, as he is something very very special. In the latest Gotrek and Felix, The Anthology, it is suggested that the axe that Gotrek wields is one of Grimnirs own two magical axes, crafted by Grugni himself. Grimnir is the Dwarf god of war and patron god of slayers. Gotrek is virtually unkillable and a failure as a slayer because of his virtual invincibility. A slayer would happily fling himself into an unwinnable fight if it saved his group from destruction. What a slayer might not do is seek death in an unwinnable fight, if it would bring destruction on his comrades as well, it would depend on how selfish the slayer was. The only other thing that would stop a slayer from seeking death in battle would be if he had made an oath that would prevent him from seeking immediate death. However dwarves are notoriously reluctant to make oaths for just that sort of reason.

Different slayers have different personalities and goals. "Die in combat" is (obviously) the overall goal, but as pointed out Gotrek (for example) wants his death to be a glorious one, something recorded for the ages. Another slayer may charge into overwhelming odds just to get it over with. Another slayer might be a coward and actually try to avoid fights. One slayer may be greedy, more concerned with acquiring wealth than death.

You should discuss with your player why his character is a slayer and how he intends to play him. You should point out that overly disruptive play may ruin the game for other players.

macd21 said:

hehe, you managed to sum up a thread with two lines

I agree, explain to the player that it's fine he's a slayer, but he needs to figure out a personality/goal etc… that doesn't ruin the game for the other players.

Spivo said:

+1!

Concerning Gotrek, the part with the lost Axe of Grimnir was planted a lot earlier. In the early Armybooks the Axe of Gotrek and that one of High King Thorgrim were almost identically in its rules. Cancels Armour and magic armour, wounds on 2+, with the Exception that Gotreks dealt back then D6 Damage to Deamons, and Throgrim's D6 to ogres.

Slayer Motivation. If you take for example the Slayer from the demo adventure, "A day Late a Shilling short" the slayer vows to protect Birgitta the roadwarden. So he wouldn't do anything that brings her into Danger. So your Slayer needs a goal or a motivation. If his desire is simply to die then let him do it. If he needs to fullfill a purpose the this is his goal. Slay, stay alive to fullfill a special oath.

Once again, thanks for all the ideas, they are very enlightening!

I already started discussing them with my players.