When your opponent flips Valar Morghulis and you flip Search and Detain, if you take first player you can put a character back in your hand before valar kills them. Now if you bounce another stark character, can you then have Meera return to shadows before she is killed?

The way it's always been explained to me is that all plot's effects go off, then you get a chance to respond. So meera would be moribund (dead) when her ability triggers.

Thats how I understand it too…
Does that also mean you are not allowed to attempt to trigger her Response at all since it does not remove her from the terminal state? Or are you still allowed to trigger her Response (even though it doesnt do anything) since you are not using a "save" effect?

Assuming we are right Skowza, you wouldn't be able to use her response because of the Moribund rules, you can't change her destination (dead pile).

Yep, I assume you cannot trigger her Response based on the "Rules Exception" portion of the FAQ: Although considered in play, a Moribund card
cannot be removed from play (or targeted to be removed from play) again by any effect or any attempt to pay a cost for the remainder of the action window .
and ktom will probably come along and verify.

Saving Meera would work (since Valar Morghulis isn't a terminal effect). Then you could trigger her response (assuming another Stark character left play). Or you could choose her for Search and Detain, so she would become moribund -> hand rather than moribund -> dead pile.

Khudzlin said:

Yes. Yes it is. It's not "cannot be saved", but it's absolutely a terminal effect.

I guess I don't understand the meaning behind "terminal effect" since you can save from VM.

Anyways, I though you would fully resolve the "when revealed" plots in order determined by the first player. In the scenario given, the first player decides Search and Detain will trigger first. A character is chosen and returned to the first player's hand. Provided it was a Stark character, since VM has not been triggered yet, I think you should be able to trigger Meera's ability to place her back into shadows.

Or because of the timing do both plots get resolved before a character is able to use responses?

Looking at the timing flow sheets i believe that while search may resolve first the next framework event (the next plot to resolve in this case) resolves straight after, this is repeated until all framework events are resolved then passives then responses. So while searching and detaining a stark character will give meera a response opening by the time it rolls around she is moribund: dead pile and cant be returned.

Of course that explanation only works if im right, which, i hasten to add is unlikely.

Of course you could bounce her to hand with search and detain and all is well (again,i think).

All 'when revealeds' from all players plots are FULLY resolved before you move on to passives and responses. When the window opens for meera to be able to attempt her response, she is already in Moribund:DeadPile via Valar resolving, and thus, cannot use her response to change her state to Moribund:Shadows because you cannot take an action that changes the moribund destination of a card.

Underworld40k said:

You are right

radiskull said:

Slothgodfather said:

A terminal effect is one that, even if you do save from it, will reassert itself and kill/discard/whatever the card all over again. Effectively, if successfully resolving the save does not actually stop the character from being killed, it's a terminal effect. Note that it isn't impossible to save from the terminal effect, but the save must both save the character and change conditions enough to stop the kill from reasserting itself at the same time.

radiskull said:

Sorry if I was confusing! Sometimes my penchant for linguistic jokes and nerdery gets the better of me. I didn't mean to derail the discussion or sow confusion.

radiskull said: